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The Ohio State University Marching Band (TBDBITL)

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OSUK said:
If you can hear it and accept it, then do so. If not, call it psychobabble.

You have to remember that I have sat across from men who lose everything because they can't stop masturbating to pornographic images. They end up divorced, estranged from their children, and their ability to restore those relationships or move on to other healthy ones is next to impossible. I'm not talking in the abstract. I've seen it and had to hear every dirty detail of it.

What you say is true. People will do all those things, but there are consequences to our choices. Pornography has conseqences, but not everyone wants to look at what they are.


My comments were purely secular. Not one thought indicated a moral or religious aspect. Interesting that you would ascribe such to them.
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In Daniel Kahnemann' book "Thinking Fast and Slow" (which everyone should read BTW) he writes about "WYSIATI: What you see is all there is" as a core universal bias that humans have in their thinking. So, while I recognize the validity of your experiences, what you're likely not seeing is all of the people who can watch some porn and not have issues. Addiction and compulsive behavior seem to me to be fairly similar whatever the substance or activity to which one is addicted, so I view porn a lot like alcohol: It's something that a lot of people can enjoy and use responsibly and that a significant subset of people can't. I do agree with you overall point that it's probably a net societal minus (as I think alcohol is), but there's a high price to be paid when we limit freedom generally, especially in matters as fundamental as sex, so if the making of it is by consenting adults, I don't know that there's much that should be done.
 
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On the issue of whether firing was appropriate, while I, based on limited information, would have preferred discipline short of firing given that Waters didn't create the culture but rather inherited it and that this seems to have been the first time that he was apprised that what was going on was not acceptable (keep in mind that he came up through band culture) the powers that be could well have been concerned that acting like one of the band members rather than as an authority figure in using a girl's sexual nickname could have escalated to him more aggressively harassing or having sex with band members, which, given the heads up that the university had, could have been really problematic from a legal perspective. So, since Gene Smith doesn't appear to have been involved in the decision-making, I'll "trust the coaches" here.
 
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MililaniBuckeye said:
How old are you? Porn has been around since the invention of the camera and moving pictures, and yet we now treat women infinitely better than we did just several generations ago.
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That's a good and relevant question. I turned 50 in May. And there is a huge difference between how I grew up and my 25 year old son did in relation to porn.

I grew up essentially in the middle of a national forest. We were the 5th house on a 5 mile long road that had 8 homes total. When a car came down the road, we would all run to the door to see if they were coming to our house. We had 3 TV channels, but only one came in clear. There was no internet, and the phone was something that hung on the wall and that you literally dialed. We lived 45 minutes away from what you could legitimately describe as a town.

The only time I ever saw pornography was when some guy would throw his Playboy or Penthouse out alongside the road and I would find it. The few times that happened, I was probably 8-10 years old. I found it fascinating, but a little confusing, so I would just toss it in the creek.

My son also lived in the country, but he grew up wired into the world with the internet, satelite TV, his phone, etc. Porn is all over that stuff. I had to teach him how to deal with it. We had controls in place until he was about 16, and then began taking them off because he understood what porn is and what it could do to him, and he understood that he had to make choices and live with the consequences. I think he's doing great now. He has been married 5 years, they seem like best friends, and he has a little girl that he adores. But porn addiction is secretive, so while I feel good about what I see, I can never be 100% sure. He is responsible for his choices, not me, so the future will show what those choices have been.

We treat women better than we did generations ago? We may have evolved in terms of establishing legal equality, but men divorce their wives at alarming rates, men abandon their children at alarming rates, we impregnate them and make it their problem, we transmit STD's to them at historically high rates, incidences of rape, sexual harrassment, etc. are epidemic, we hit women more, we verbally and emotionally abuse them more, and on and on. I don't see that we are treating them better at all. What I see is a lot of very damaged men doing a whole lot of damage to girls and women.
 
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OSUK said:
If you can hear it and accept it, then do so. If not, call it psychobabble.

You have to remember that I have sat across from men who lose everything because they can't stop masturbating to pornographic images. They end up divorced, estranged from their children, and their ability to restore those relationships or move on to other healthy ones is next to impossible. I'm not talking in the abstract. I've seen it and had to hear every dirty detail of it.

What you say is true. People will do all those things, but there are consequences to our choices. Pornography has conseqences, but not everyone wants to look at what they are.
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Look, I get it. Pornograohy has consequences. Drinking does too. Drugs. I know people whose marriages were ruined by World of Warcraft. But, that's not, in any way shape of form what's caused what's gone on here. Are there new cultural twists to it? Sure. Boys and girls are gonna fuck, and they're going to talk like they want to fuck and they're gonna make dirty jokes, they're gonna flirt. the 20 year old that's been around is gonna haze the 18 year old that hasn't. There are going to be overtones to it. This is the reality of the last few millennia, not the digital porn age.
 
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Jagdaddy said:
In Daniel Kahnemann' book "Thinking Fast and Slow" (which everyone should read BTW) he writes about "WYSIATI: What you see is all there is" as a core universal bias that humans have in their thinking. So, while I recognize the validity of your experiences, what you're likely not seeing is all of the people who can watch some porn and not have issues. Addiction and compulsive behavior seem to me to be fairly similar whatever the substance or activity to which one is addicted, so I view porn a lot like alcohol: It's something that a lot of people can enjoy and use responsibly and that a significant subset of people can't. I do agree with you overall point that it's probably a net societal minus (as I think alcohol is), but there's a high price to be paid when we limit freedom generally, especially in matters as fundamental as sex, so if the making of it is by consenting adults, I don't know that there's much that should be done.
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All valid points. But I assure you, I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. I read about this stuff all the time because you have to get beyond your WYSIATI to understand what you are dealing with.

Particularly germaine is the distinction you make between casual users of porn and those addicted. No, you will not necessarily ruin your life if you peeked at a boob last week. When I talk about men who have been broken by porn, I'm talking about chronic and compulsive use. I agree with your alcohol comparison. Alcohol is addictive and socially costly. Many people use it and are fine. Others end up under a bridge. Total abstinence is the only sure way to avoid the negative consequences that can come with a porn addiction or with alcoholism, but we do like our freedom.

I always find it interesting that when you bring up the worst effects of pornography, people automatically think you are advocating censorship or something. Nope. Not here. It's out there and I don't think it's even possible to get rid of it, even if you want to. My appeal would be to individual men to stop poisoning their minds so that they can be good dads and fathers. I believe I said that this is about acknowledging the dangers, making choices, and understanding the consequences of those choices. That girl in that picture or video that you are masturbating to was/is someone's little girl. She had a future that had nothing to do with helping men ejaculate semen, but somehow, that's where she ended up finding her level of self-value. If you don't want that to be your little girl's future, why would you want to create a demand for someone else's little girl to be used in that way?
 
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