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The Ohio State University Marching Band (TBDBITL)

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jlb1705 said:
He knew exactly what the rituals were. The report makes pretty clear that he was supervising and/or participating in some of them..
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When I said, "but then again who knows exactly what these rituals are", I meant outsiders knowing. Unless you are/were a recent member of the band you really don't know exactly what rituals are being done...
 
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OSUK said:
There is a ton of PC crap, psychobabble, and the like going on in our culture.

There is also a decay in how we treat women. I think there are many factors that go into that - which I will not go into because they are all hot-button issues, but I will throw out one that we men are solely responsible for. If you are under 30, the chances are very high that you have viewed multiplied thousands of hours of pornography. Many men think it is harmless fun. The research, and my experience in dealing with broken men, indicates that it is sexual and relational heroin. It is addictive, progressive, and very destructive. It is fantasy, and it desensitizes us to having real sex with a real woman in a loving context where we are trying to meet her needs instead of just our own. Women literally become sexual objects who's value is only what gratification they can bring to us. I see that attitude on this forum and every day in conversations with men. If we give ourselves totally over to that line of thinking, we are done as far as being capable of being good husbands and fathers.

We need to stop baptizing ourselves with images of naked women doing sexual acts because we need men who can love, nurture, and protect our girls. Pornography, by it's essence, takes us the other way.

I'm not saying pornography is at the core of this TBDBITL problem, but I am saying that it is a sub-factor that would allow, for instance, a male band member to think it is OK to force a female member to act out a faux sexual act on someone else.
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Then why more psychobabble?

This is indeed cultural... its called, as was pointed out 18-23 year olds spending a lot of time together.

Especially 18-23 year olds forging a common identity and being part of a unit. Boys and girls. They're gonna haze, they're gonna prank, they're gonna fuck, and they're gonna do all those things a lot. This is reality.

(Waters may or may not have drawn the appropriate line between himself and the behaviour, and I don't have an opinion on whether he deserved to be fired. Probably did. But if he did, its apparently for his actions, the rest of it will continue in the future.)

There are almost 9 billion people on the planet, boys and girls are gonna do, what boys and girls are gonna do. Along with all the attendant juvenile BS that goes along with being 19. There is nothing anyone can do to stop it.
 
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jlb1705 said:
I'm ashamed of this episode and proud of the university for taking decisive action today.

18-23 year olds are going to be 18-23 year olds. We've all been that age before and most of us did incredibly stupid [Mark May] to ourselves or others in the name of fitting in. It's not exclusive to this generation or this cohort of band members, and it's not exclusive to the marching band subculture.

The real problem was that Waters and his staff not only condoned the behavior, they participated in it and facilitated it. That is entirely unacceptable for a person in his position.

The argument that the students are adults and the offended are free to extricate themselves cuts both ways. They are adults, so that is a standard that a supposed educator and leader like Jon Waters should have been holding them to for their behavior. As an employee of the university he's responsible for creating and maintaining a respectful environment in that program instead of providing a platform for people to act like [Mark May]heads.
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Fungo Squiggly said:
I'll play devil's advocate for a bit.....

This isn't a fraternity, it is a class. Would anyone be okay with a history professor allowing this to go on in his class?
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Fungo Squiggly (aka Bucky Katt) and jib1705 hit the nail in the head. This didn't happen (off campus) in the Delta frat house, it happened (basically) in an Ohio State classroom with the teacher's full knowledge and support.

animal-house.jpg
 
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OSUK said:
There is a ton of PC crap, psychobabble, and the like going on in our culture.

There is also a decay in how we treat women. I think there are many factors that go into that - which I will not go into because they are all hot-button issues, but I will throw out one that we men are solely responsible for. If you are under 30, the chances are very high that you have viewed multiplied thousands of hours of pornography. Many men think it is harmless fun. The research, and my experience in dealing with broken men, indicates that it is sexual and relational heroin. It is addictive, progressive, and very destructive. It is fantasy, and it desensitizes us to having real sex with a real woman in a loving context where we are trying to meet her needs instead of just our own. Women literally become sexual objects who's value is only what gratification they can bring to us. I see that attitude on this forum and every day in conversations with men. If we give ourselves totally over to that line of thinking, we are done as far as being capable of being good husbands and fathers.

We need to stop baptizing ourselves with images of naked women doing sexual acts because we need men who can love, nurture, and protect our girls. Pornography, by it's essence, takes us the other way.

I'm not saying pornography is at the core of this TBDBITL problem, but I am saying that it is a sub-factor that would allow, for instance, a male band member to think it is OK to force a female member to act out a faux sexual act on someone else.
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Thanks for the sermon, Reverend...
 
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MililaniBuckeye said:
I see no zero problem in "Waters and his staff" condoning age-old band traditions, no matter how replusive it may seem to today's PC crowd. He and staff participating in some rituals may be too much, but then again who knows exactly what these rituals are. And as mentioned before, all this [Mark May] came about not because of a complaint from a band member but because of a complaint from a fucking parent...someone who very likely didn't have the full story.

As someone who spent four years in one of Ohio's premier high school military marching bands in the early '70s, and Keesler AFB's drum and bugle corps (assistant drum major) in '75-'76, I know what [Mark May] goes on, especially in the post-high school arena. There is a reason for nearly every aspect of the hazing/ritual, whether it be perservering through tough challenges, performing under "uncomfortable" circumstances, or simply proving your worth. Plus, believe it or not, these behaviors build espirit de corps and bond band members together as a unit.
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My son was a member of a junior military marching band in Warren Ohio. To this day he will not discuss some of his stories that went on, and I know that his mother knew of some of the hazings and sexual harassment in those days, but never approached anyone involved with the band. Sadly my wife and I, at the time were going thru divorce proceedings. But maybe the things that go on in a young persons life is very, very hard. Especially if there is only One parent around to try and deal with all this stuff. I can see that, at this time in our cultural society, I sure would not want to be a parent today and trying do deal with all of the above that I read about.
 
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AKAK said:
Then why more psychobabble?

This is indeed cultural... its called, as was pointed out 18-23 year olds spending a lot of time together.

Especially 18-23 year olds forging a common identity and being part of a unit. Boys and girls. They're gonna haze, they're gonna prank, they're gonna fuck, and they're gonna do all those things a lot. This is reality.

(Waters may or may not have drawn the appropriate line between himself and the behaviour, and I don't have an opinion on whether he deserved to be fired. Probably did. But if he did, its apparently for his actions, the rest of it will continue in the future.)

There are almost 9 billion people on the planet, boys and girls are gonna do, what boys and girls are gonna do. Along with all the attendant juvenile BS that goes along with being 19. There is nothing anyone can do to stop it.
Click to expand...

If you can hear it and accept it, then do so. If not, call it psychobabble.

You have to remember that I have sat across from men who lose everything because they can't stop masturbating to pornographic images. They end up divorced, estranged from their children, and their ability to restore those relationships or move on to other healthy ones is next to impossible. I'm not talking in the abstract. I've seen it and had to hear every dirty detail of it.

What you say is true. People will do all those things, but there are consequences to our choices. Pornography has conseqences, but not everyone wants to look at what they are.

Woody1968 said:
Thanks for the sermon, Reverend...
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My comments were purely secular. Not one thought indicated a moral or religious aspect. Interesting that you would ascribe such to them.
 
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OSUK said:
There is also a decay in how we treat women. I think there are many factors that go into that - which I will not go into because they are all hot-button issues, but I will throw out one that we men are solely responsible for. If you are under 30, the chances are very high that you have viewed multiplied thousands of hours of pornography. Many men think it is harmless fun. The research, and my experience in dealing with broken men, indicates that it is sexual and relational heroin. It is addictive, progressive, and very destructive. It is fantasy, and it desensitizes us to having real sex with a real woman in a loving context where we are trying to meet her needs instead of just our own. Women literally become sexual objects who's value is only what gratification they can bring to us. I see that attitude on this forum and every day in conversations with men. If we give ourselves totally over to that line of thinking, we are done as far as being capable of being good husbands and fathers.

We need to stop baptizing ourselves with images of naked women doing sexual acts because we need men who can love, nurture, and protect our girls. Pornography, by it's essence, takes us the other way.

I'm not saying pornography is at the core of this TBDBITL problem, but I am saying that it is a sub-factor that would allow, for instance, a male band member to think it is OK to force a female member to act out a faux sexual act on someone else.
Click to expand...
How old are you? Porn has been around since the invention of the camera and moving pictures, and yet we now treat women infinitely better than we did just several generations ago.
 
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