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The Masters Tournament 2010

Steve19;1688674; said:
I think because of all the stage-managed statements of contrition for his disrespect of the game and behavior such as this. I still think that Tiger just doesn't get it.

Understood. My question is why now?? Were the 3 "God-damnits" on Thursday or the several he dropped on Friday not good enough to focus on?? My guess is this was a Saturday round, so a larger crowd heard it, giving them reason to focus on it.

Truthfully, on Thursday when he slammed his driver and let a curse fly, I thought they'd be all over it. Its just weird they choose now to focus on it.

But I'm not sure Tiger will ever grow out of that. It's a natural reaction and something he has done all the way back to his amateur days. Just b/c he curses, doesn't mean he has a lack of respect for the game. I remember Freddy causing a huge ruckus for dropping the F-bomb in a playoff.
 
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We began with a question as to why the media only recognize Tiger's behavior on Saturday? I suppose one could consider this as evidence of a conspiracy against Tiger at one extreme. Another way to consider it is that the media gave Tiger some space to get himself under control after such a long layoff. I think the latter is more true, as shown by this example:

In his February public apology, Tiger Woods vowed he would show more respect to the game of golf. No more fist pumping, no more club tossing and no more profanity-laden outbursts after bad shots.
He made it about 42 holes.

During Saturday's third round of The Masters, Woods repeatedly cursed at himself loudly enough for television microphones to pick it up and air it live on CBS. The mini-temper tantrums came during a stretch on the front nine when Woods made three bogeys in four holes.

After a poorly-struck tee shot on the par-3 6th hole, Tiger closed his eyes in disgust and loudly said, "Tiger Woods, you suck." He followed that with a Commandment-breaking expletive and a shake of the head.
Clearly, in February Tiger connected the dots between his ebullient and aggressive behavior on the course and disrespect for the game. Some would argue that cursing doesn't show disrespect in a society that, after all, now includes these words regularly in television programming and daily life.

I have an alternative viewpoint, that I share as one who struggles to contain my own use of such words. I could blame my own use of foul words on (a) being an old Army sergeant, (b) growing up in the hippie era, (c) desiring to be authentic in communicating or whatever. The truth is that I don't use such word in professional contexts because it shows a lack of control and a lack of respect for others and I try very hard to not ever use them.

Sure, some things are hard to break. When I hit my thumb with a hammer, I have great difficulty not channeling my father, who only cursed in such times. But, I am making progress.

Slamming clubs into the ground and cursing is more than just a sign of emotional immaturity. If you examine the psychology literature on the use of foul language and public displays of anger, it is intended more to affect others than oneself.

Having hit a bad shot, I don't doubt that Tiger is angry with himself. But I also recognize that his display is intended to reduce the disadvantage of his bad shot by disrupting the concentration of his playing partners. Given all of his recent psychological counseling, I am quite sure that he realizes this consciously now, if he did not previously.

Take Tiger's uses of the Lord's name in vain. If you're not religious, it's no big deal. Who cares? Well, the many members of Abrahamic religions who believe God gave the Ten Commandments to Moses. They would recognize taking the Lord's name in vain as a most grievous sin with eternal implications for the person who does it.

So what, that's their problem, isn't it? Well, something that they consider to be so offensive would impact on their concentration because it is a deep affront to their sense of religious identity. Even if Tiger does not know the psychological theory behind this, he recognizes that his behavior has an effect on his opponents, which he can observe in small details such as their breathing and pupil size. Anyone who has grown up in Asia can tell you that people can and do monitor such small physiological changes in others to assess their interest and reaction in social interactions.

Take the displays of aggression (e.g., slamming clubs into the ground, into his bag, or throwing them). Again, he may well be angry with himself but he realizes that his behavior affects the composure of his opponents. Responses to aggressive behavior by others, by the way, are pre-cognitive. That is, they are automatic responses in the limbic system that elevate arousal and direct blood, hormones, and other resources to fight or flight. More importantly, they disrupt concentration by directing attention at potentially threatening stimuli.

Tiger also knows that his behavior also has an effect on the crowd, who begin to talk about it--while his opponents are planning and playing their shots. Again, this disrupts their attention. This is especially true when he does one of his fist pumping displays on sinking a putt.

This is why this type of behavior is forbidden in golf. Recognizing that golf is a game of concentration, the R&A discusses this saying, "The overriding principle is that consideration should be shown to others on the course at all times." From the USGA rules on golf etiquette:

Unlike many sports, golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf....

No Disturbance or Distraction


Players should always show consideration for other players on the course and should not disturb their play by moving, talking or making any unnecessary noise. (USGA)
I'd love to see a statistical comparison: Performance of Tiger's playing partners on the hole and subsequent hole when Tiger makes one of these displays versus their performance on other holes in the round. The statistic would be performance to the average score on the hole for the day by all players. I choose this comparison because wind conditions and other factors affect the difficulty of holes and Tiger may be more likely to behave like this on more difficult holes, so the analysis would control for that.

And, by the way, Tiger tries to bury it behind acknowledging fans, but he agrees completely with what I say, as evidenced by his pre-Masters presser:

Q. You said in February that when you returned to the game that you wanted to show more respect for the game; in what way are we going to see sort of differences out there between the ropes and outside the ropes?



TIGER WOODS: Yeah, great question. I'm actually going to try and obviously not get as hot when I play. But then again, when I'm not as hot, I'm not going to be as exuberant, either. I can't play one without the other, and so I made a conscious decision to try and tone down my negative outbursts and consequently I'm sure my positive outbursts be will calmed down, as well.

Just trying to be more respectful of the game and acknowledge the fans like I did today. That was just an incredible reception today for all 18 holes, and show my appreciation for them. I haven't done that in the past few years, and that was wrong of me. So many kids have looked up to me and so many fans have supported me over the years. Just wanted to say thank you to them, especially going through all of this over the past few months, it really put things in perspective for me and how much I have appreciated or underappreciated the fans in the game of golf.
 
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Steve, you make some very interesting points...but I can't help but think you're reaching just a bit when it comes to your reasoning. I understand that Tiger is a very intelligent, obviously manipulative human being...but to suggest that his reactions are solely (or mostly) a mind game seems to be a bit out of the realm of belief.

Steve19;1688735; said:
Having hit a bad shot, I don't doubt that Tiger is angry with himself. But I also recognize that his display is intended to reduce the disadvantage of his bad shot by disrupting the concentration of his playing partners, whether it is intentional or not. Given all of his recent psychological counseling, I am quite sure that he realizes this consciously now, if he did not previously.

What about the publicized portions of Tiger's "recent psychological counselling" suggests to you that something like this would be a topic of discussion? Note: That's not to say you wouldn't have a better understanding of what would go on under those circumstances, I just haven't seen the evidence to connect point A to point B here.

Even if Tiger does not know the psychological theory behind this, he recognizes that his behavior has an effect on his opponents, which he can observe in small details such as their breathing and pupil size. Anyone who has grown up in Asia can tell you that people can and do monitor such small physiological changes in others to assess their interest and reaction in social interactions.

It would seem to me that someone who is a professional golfer such as Tiger would not have the time, focus or latent skill to make such assessments of his opponents in this way. I wouldn't put it past Tiger to notice what he can in regards to body language and results of his playing partner, but I can't picture Tiger approaching his reactionary behavior as a "Terminator-esque", behavioral analyst, mind-ninja.

Take the displays of aggression (e.g., slamming clubs into the ground, into his bag, or throwing them). Again, he may well be angry with himself but he realizes that his behavior affects the composure of his opponents. Responses to aggressive behavior by others, by the way, are pre-cognitive. That is, they are automatic responses in the limbic system that elevate arousal and direct blood, hormones, and other resources to fight or flight. More importantly, they disrupt concentration by directing attention at potentially threatening stimuli.

Now this I can buy 100% in regards to Tiger's immediate playing group. It seems to be a major focal point during tournaments to discuss the composure of those playing alongside Tiger. I don't usually hear that same discussion for other golfers. Now, I doubt that this discussion is usually held with your exact reasoning in mind...but there IS a noticeable effect that takes place.

Tiger also knows that his behavior also has an effect on the crowd, who begin to talk about it--while his opponents are planning and playing their shots. Again, this disrupts their attention. This is especially true when he does one of his fist pumping displays on sinking a putt.

Firstly, I have a hard time believing that any professional golfer is going to let the rumorous whispers of the crowd trailing a golfer at any specific hole affect them in any way.

Secondly, the fist pumping Tiger displays in celebration at times is in totality not that much different than the typical celebration you'd see from much of the field. Case in point: take a look at Phil's celebration after his chip-in eagle yesterday. He threw his hands in the air, screamed "Yeah!", high-fived his caddie and then let out a singular fist pump then let out a "Whoo!". If you take a look at Tiger's infamous Masters chip you'd see a very similar celebration.

Now, that's not to say that Tiger's celebrations don't have a very significant signature style to them that is inherently a bit more aggressive than the average golfer...but that seems to be more of a reflection of golf style and personality than an intentional intimidation technique.

I'd love to see a statistical comparison: Performance of Tiger's playing partners on the hole and subsequent hole when Tiger makes one of these displays versus their performance on other holes in the round. The statistic would be performance to the average score on the hole for the day by all players. I choose this comparison because wind conditions and other factors affect the difficulty of holes and Tiger may be more likely to behave like this on more difficult holes, so the analysis would control for that.

I'd like to see this as well...but even with any significant data, it'd be very hard to attribute the change specifically to Tiger's "displays". If you break it down a bit, Tiger's displays ONLY happen when he's done something significant one way or another. He doesn't generate that sort of reaction to an average shot, or something un-important that has no bearings on his round.

It's extremely important to note that Tiger's "displays" are vocal and physical signifiers of events that affect his opponents anyway in pure regards to golf and the tournament at hand.

It'd be JUST as easy to make the argument that when Tiger's opponents know he's made a mistake and left them an opportunity to capitalize or know that Tiger has just made a shot that either puts them back even further or decreases their lead that THAT would have a significant psychological effect...causing a significant change in performance...or "choking" in more relative terms.

This argument would actually make far more sense in terms of the game of golf.

This is why this type of behavior is forbidden in golf. Recognizing that gold is a game of concentration, the R&A discusses this saying, "The overriding principle is that consideration should be shown to others on the course at all times." From the USGA rules on golf etiquette:

Unlike many sports, golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf....

No Disturbance or Distraction

Players should always show consideration for other players on the course and should not disturb their play by moving, talking or making any unnecessary noise. (USGA)

While I don't disagree that Tiger's displays are arrogant as well as unnecessary, to use that rule as an argument to support the claim that said displays are against the rules of etiquette is a very large stretch. My understanding of this rule pertains more to a player taking a shot and another player taking "Baseketball" like measures to psyche out an opponent...things such as yelling "swing" mid backswing or standing within eyesight of a player taking a shot doing anything distracting.

All things considered, I find Tiger's actions to be disrespectful toward the game...but not inherently toward others. I feel that if there are any significant effects to other players' performances, those are simply within the pressures of the game of golf. I don't believe that Tiger is malicious enough on the golf course to intentionally play the kind of mind games you're suggesting he's playing...that would seem to take quite a bit of concentration that I don't believe a man like Tiger has to spare.

Tiger isn't Reggie Miller...he doesn't have the sort of face time with his opponents that can/will significantly affect them...and I doubt that whatever effect he does have, he does it on purpose...
 
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TheRob8801, it's pretty clear that you love this guy and it is equally clear that you will be unable to see this guy in an unbiased manner. However, the points I make are not refutable. They are based in well-accepted findings in cognitive psychology, the statements of his peers, and his own admissions (there are many other instances in which he has admitted that his behavior shows disrespect to those with whom he plays and by that he acknowledges that he disrupts them).

The rules of etiquette are clear and this statement doesn't offer any wiggle room to Tiger or those who apologize for his behavior: "All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf."

The PGA needs to censure Woods for his behavior. No matter how much Tiger adds to golf, it is he who needs golf, not the reverse. A monetary fine for his behavior will show him that he needs to control his behavior and win fairly.
 
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Steve19;1688757; said:
TheRob8801, it's pretty clear that you love this guy and it is equally clear that you will be unable to see this guy in an unbiased manner.

You're going to have to explain to me what's so "clear" about your insinuation...I've felt that there is nothing biased about my post. I'm simply attempting to square away some areas where I disagree with you. Surely you aren't saying that since I disagree with you on certain points, I am a biased observer...

I've made a few valid arguments that I feel like you can at least comment on, as opposed to simply saying. "You're wrong. I can't be wrong. So there."

Steve19;1688757; said:
However, the points I make are not refutable. They are based in well-accepted findings in cognitive psychology, the statements of his peers, and his own admissions (there are many other instances in which he has admitted that his behavior shows disrespect to those with whom he plays and by that he acknowledges that he disrupts them).

I have not heard any statements in which Tiger has said that. That's not to say that he didn't, it's just to say that I am ignorant to those statements. I, personally, am of the opinion I have stated before...that his actions are more disrespectful toward the game and toward himself than intentionally malicious toward other players in the field.

As I stated in my post, I am not questioning the psychological analysis you've put on the situation. I'm well aware of the relevance and pertinence of such theories. I am simply questioning the causality of such behaviors and the relative terms in which the game of golf is played.

Steve19;1688757; said:
The rules of etiquette are clear and this statement doesn't offer any wiggle room to Tiger or those who apologize for his behavior: "All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf."

I'm beginning to question if you actually read my post thoroughly. I am in no way apologetic for Tiger's actions. In short, they bother me more than most. As someone who thoroughly enjoys watching Tiger play, I'd enjoy him much more if he wasn't such a controversial figure.

I agree 100% that Tiger is in direct violation of the part of the rules that you've quoted here. You're absolutely right..."this statement" does NOT offer any wiggle room.

Steve19;1688757; said:
The PGA needs to censure Woods for his behavior. No matter how much Tiger adds to golf, it is he who needs golf, not the reverse. A monetary fine for his behavior will show him that he needs to control his behavior and win fairly.

It's a valid argument that Tiger is in direct violation of the PGA's rules of etiquette, but to suggest that he is in some way "cheating" seems like a major stretch.

On the whole, I agree with you more than I disagree. I'd just like to hear what you have to say about the areas that are more gray.
 
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TheRob...Normal typeface are your comments and italics my response.

I've made a few valid arguments that I feel like you can at least comment on, as opposed to simply saying. "You're wrong. I can't be wrong. So there."

I see opinions, not arguments. An argument contains a claim about one thing relating to another, a reason why those relations are expected, and evidence to support the claim.

I have not heard any statements in which Tiger has said that. That's not to say that he didn't, it's just to say that I am ignorant to those statements. I, personally, am of the opinion I have stated before...that his actions are more disrespectful toward the game and toward himself than intentionally malicious toward other players in the field.

Fine, that is your opinion, not an argument. See? My point is that irrespective of his intentions, he is disruptive. He knows it because it has been discussed with him. If you revisit his interviews since this matter broke, he makes it clear that his behavior is disruptive and disrespectful to other players. His disrespect is not that his sexual liaisons brought the game into disrepute. Clearly, that behavior says something about Woods, not golf. By disrespectful, he means that he does not respect their rights to concentrate and play the game without his interference. This isn't a debate about style that his fellow players are having with him.

As I stated in my post, I am not questioning the psychological analysis you've put on the situation. I'm well aware of the relevance and pertinence of such theories. I am simply questioning the causality of such behaviors and the relative terms in which the game of golf is played.

The theories that I cite establish the causality that I imply. I could have approached this from the viewpoint of several other theories as well.

I'm beginning to question if you actually read my post thoroughly. I am in no way apologetic for Tiger's actions. In short, they bother me more than most. As someone who thoroughly enjoys watching Tiger play, I'd enjoy him much more if he wasn't such a controversial figure.

I agree 100% that Tiger is in direct violation of the part of the rules that you've quoted here. You're absolutely right..."this statement" does NOT offer any wiggle room.

It's a valid argument that Tiger is in direct violation of the PGA's rules of etiquette, but to suggest that he is in some way "cheating" seems like a major stretch.

Notice that I specifically avoided the use of the word "cheating". However it is very clear that he gains an unfair advantage by violating the rules of etiquette. That is my point.

On the whole, I agree with you more than I disagree. I'd just like to hear what you have to say about the areas that are more gray.

I don't see any gray area. This is the world's richest sports person who has a sports psychologist (and now a sexual addiction psychologist) on his payroll. He is not someone who cannot control his emotions. Quite the opposite, his ability to control his emotions and perform are a major contributor to his success on the course. He knows exactly what he is doing. He is able to control his emotions. His behavior is intentional.
 
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Steve19;1688761; said:
I see opinions, not arguments. An argument contains a claim about one thing relating to another, a reason why those relations are expected, and evidence to support the claim.

TheRob8801 said:
I'd like to see this as well...but even with any significant data, it'd be very hard to attribute the change specifically to Tiger's "displays". If you break it down a bit, Tiger's displays ONLY happen when he's done something significant one way or another. He doesn't generate that sort of reaction to an average shot, or something un-important that has no bearings on his round.

It's extremely important to note that Tiger's "displays" are vocal and physical signifiers of events that affect his opponents anyway in pure regards to golf and the tournament at hand.

It'd be JUST as easy to make the argument that when Tiger's opponents know he's made a mistake and left them an opportunity to capitalize or know that Tiger has just made a shot that either puts them back even further or decreases their lead that THAT would have a significant psychological effect...causing a significant change in performance...or "choking" in more relative terms.

Fine, that is your opinion, not an argument. See? My point is that irrespective of his intentions, he is disruptive. He knows it because it has been discussed with him. If you revisit his interviews since this matter broke, he makes it clear that his behavior is disruptive and disrespectful to other players. His disrespect is not that his sexual liaisons brought the game into disrepute. Clearly, that behavior says something about Woods, not golf. By disrespectful, he means that he does not respect their rights to concentrate and play the game without his interference. This isn't a debate about style that his fellow players are having with him.

Firstly, there's no reason to take a condescending tone.

Second, I wouldn't have stated that what you quoted was my opinion, if I was unaware that it wasn't an argument. In respect to your point about evidence, I'd like to see where Tiger specifically acknowledges that he "does not respect [the other players'] rights to concentrate and play the game without his interference" in THOSE terms. Tiger's admission of disrespecting his fellow players and intentionally disrupting their game to gain an advantage are two separate things.

The theories that I cite establish the causality that I imply. I could have approached this from the viewpoint of several other theories as well.

Another theory is what I have mentioned above. What have you seen specifically that suggests this to be any less of an explanation than what you elicited here?

Notice that I specifically avoided the use of the word "cheating". However it is very clear that he gains an unfair advantage by violating the rules of etiquette. That is my point.

That seems more a matter of semantics than anything. If you're suggesting that Tiger is in some way gaining an unfair advantage by violating the rules, you're suggesting that he's cheating...might as well call it what it is.

If Tiger was cheating...and it was as obvious as you've claimed it is, don't you believe that some sort of action would have been taken against it by now? What possible reason would the USGA have against fining or suspending Tiger for such actions?

I don't see any gray area. This is the world's richest sports person who has a sports psychologist (and now a sexual addiction psychologist) on his payroll. He is not someone who cannot control his emotions. Quite the opposite, his ability to control his emotions and perform are a major contributor to his success on the course. He knows exactly what he is doing. He is able to control his emotions. His behavior is intentional.

If we're playing by the same rules of debate here, your lack of acknowledging any gray area is strictly your opinion. Even if you were determined that what you have claimed is true, you must play devil's advocate and consider that other explanations are relevant.

Judging by your posts on Tiger in the past, and your take here in this thread, I could make the same baseless argument that your contempt for "this guy" is obvious and you're unable to have an un-biased view of the matter...but that would be ignorant of me to do.

There are two sides to every matter...and if your statements were "irrefutable" I would have absolutely nothing to say...but the fact of the matter is that I've mentioned a few things that are worth mentioning in opposition to your argument...so for the sake of not letting this conversation slip into the semantical circle rhetoric it seems it's heading toward.

What do you have to say about this:

I'd like to see this as well...but even with any significant data, it'd be very hard to attribute the change specifically to Tiger's "displays". If you break it down a bit, Tiger's displays ONLY happen when he's done something significant one way or another. He doesn't generate that sort of reaction to an average shot, or something un-important that has no bearings on his round.

It's extremely important to note that Tiger's "displays" are vocal and physical signifiers of events that affect his opponents anyway in pure regards to golf and the tournament at hand.

It'd be JUST as easy to make the argument that when Tiger's opponents know he's made a mistake and left them an opportunity to capitalize or know that Tiger has just made a shot that either puts them back even further or decreases their lead that THAT would have a significant psychological effect...causing a significant change in performance...or "choking" in more relative terms.

and this:

If Tiger was cheating...and it was as obvious as you've claimed it is, don't you believe that some sort of action would have been taken against it by now? What possible reason would the USGA have against fining or suspending Tiger for such actions?

and these points:

If Tiger's behavior was intentional in the terms you aforementioned, he would be consciously making an effort to get into the heads of the entire field by cursing and yelling and slamming clubs...and then making a concerted effort to CHECK whether or not he was being effectual by examining the pupil size, breathing and other physiological changes in his opponents. Wouldn't that require a certain amount of focus and exertion from Tiger that would detract from his game? Hypothetically speaking, wouldn't it be more beneficial for Tiger to simply use that extra effort to bolster his game, rather than use it to detract from others?

If he is, in fact, simply allowing himself to react naturally to the emotions of the situation with these outburst knowing HOW they affect his opponents (if in fact they do), that would suggest that his behaviors are simply irresponsible and not malicious as you suggest.

MY point, is that I have enough faith in the USGA to not allow such a blatant cheater to run rampant for such an extended period of time as you have suggested is going on...meaning I believe Tiger's actions to be unnecessary? Yes. Disrespectful? Yes...but malicious in terms of cheating? Very very questionable.
 
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Bucklion;1688765; said:
Um...is there a tournament going on in this thread? :wink2:

If we're still talking about this when the first of the featured groups tees off, I'll concede the point for the sake of staying on topic...but until then, this is still roughly tournament talk, is it not? :tongue2:

THEWOOD;1688767; said:
seriously....

I thought Robb was gone until September?

I lied. Couldn't get enough of you guys...:biggrin:
 
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Regardless of your opinion of the guy, I find it funny that a few outbursts on Saturday have everyone screaming, "He's back, the Tiger of old! Swearing and club swinging!!!"

I personally think he has made some incredible strides this week, interacting with fellow golfers more, not flipping out as often.

This will definitely be a process, one that takes a lot of time and will not be squeaky clean. The fact that he is making the effort is what matters right now. Today will be very interesting, because you know he's going to have heard all of this. His response on the course will be, well, interesting.

And swearing is, like Steve said, a natural response. One that will be very difficult to "retrain" out of. Breaking of habits is difficult, let me tell you.

If its such an offensive problem, why doesn't the media just, not point the boom mic's toward him? Or put it on a delay? Seriously, don't act all shocked and offended then do nothing about it. Hell, they kept replaying the clips of him swearing!

Anyway, I've really enjoyed this tournament, Tiger, Phil and Freddie will all be getting my cheers today, I couldn't be happier for all three. Freddie has been my longtime favorite, Phil has just had a great week, what a win would mean to him...and Tiger, well, maybe I'm just rooting for the guy to come through and kickstart his "new" life.

Anyone else think Mr Westwood will drop this lead like its hot? Obviously anything can happen, but you get the sense that he will struggle putting it together for 18 holes today. I think he needs to get to -15 to win it, anything less is way too close. With Tigers/Phils length, expect at least 4 eagles between the two of them,

Love this tournament!
 
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