If the entire universe itself is not evidence enough, then there's no convincing you Brew... Not that you're even in need a convincing, or that any theist, such as myself, should endeavor to do so. My point is more that a lot of our differences as humans is based on our original assumption. In other words, I believe G-d exists, I have my reasons, even my own personal "proofs"... I have sufficient evidence. Much like, Bgrad, I haven't seen anything that requires my understand of G-d to change. Everything in the universe "proves" G-d exists. Of course, you don't seem to think that way, and consequently everything in the universe "proves" G-d isn't necessary.
I guess all I'm really saying is the way we interpret the evidence is always evaluated thru whatever lenses we have. If you're looking for ways in which this universe can be here doing the things it does without having been created by a creator, you're going to find solutions to those issues out there to hold on to as "facts" and "evidence" and "logic" and such. Conversely, people like Bgrad and I are not going to be inclined to see a universe without G-d's creation having caused it. It's almost like these two groups - thinkers like you and thinkers like Grad or me (at least on the issue of the existence of a creator) - come to the same problem from an opposite direction...
Group A: OK, so, if G-d is possible, he must exit (I believe this premise to be correct, tho it does require support. I don't want to quibble with it however). G-d is possible... Does anything in this universe make G-d impossible?
Group B: OK, so, if G-d exists, surely there must be evidence of this? Does the universe have anything in it which shouldn't be there but for G-d's making it so?
The true error is - people in Group A aren't at all likely to find evidence in the universe that makes G-d impossible. I sure haven't, I can tell you that. Everything I've learned about the natural universe.. literally everything .. has never led to the conclusion my understanding of G-d is a fools errand. That's not to say some other understandings of G-d aren't ... in my mind anyway, verifiably wrong (ie a creator who tossed this little world together 4,000+ years ago)... just that there is no "smoking gun" out there proving G-d doesn't exist.
Likewise, people in Group B come from a background where they view their evidence thru the lens of "G-d isnt' necessary for this thing to be" You, consequently, ask for the impossible... "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" I mean, yeah, you're right... but.. what more can a theist show you than the universe itself... to say, you want evidence? Look around you. The universe exists. There is nothing BUT G-d.
Heavy evidence indeed... except... you're correct to challenge that as nothing more than a "but, believe the way I do and you'll see!" remark. It's not proof. And.. as I sit here, I have no idea what sort of "proof" you're even looking for. I can't show you anything "unnatural" in this universe.. I can't show you anything that says "Made by G-d" So.. what am I supposed to do to argue with you for (or even against) the existence of G-d?
So, for me the first question that has to be asked and answered in these sorts of back and forth's comes to me from what I like to think is a common experience for people - When I examine theoretical ideas, G-d or how space time behaves in a black hole - I try to find similarities in the natural world that I can study... for example, if I wanted to understand populations in finite space I might study bacteria in a petri dish to learn and I'd be correct in taking those conclusions and applying it to other populations, such as the human race... or a pride of lions.. whatever... anyway.. I find similarities.. consistencies in reality.. "rules" I guess... and one rule I've found is this...
I've never seen anything "spring into being" without having been created. I don't know.. I once had no kids.. I created 2 of them. I used to not have a patio... I created one... I see people creating ideas, and movies, and cars, and all sorts of things... With the exception of the rest of the universe, damn near everything seems to need a creator. So... why shouldn't the universe need a creator.. at the largest scale... Everything else does.
A suspect you'd retort with the idea that no one created Jupiter or the star Rigel and there's no evidence of this. And.. you'd be correct.... at least to the extent that there is certainly nothing "extraordinary" in their existing. To me the issue of if they were "created" is in question, to you their existence without evidence of being intelligently created is evidence. And.. we are at impasse...
But.. to me.. that there is anything at all... begs the question... why should there even be a universe in the first place? I don't know.... maybe at the end of the day, the ultimate question is does our universe exist for a reason or not.
Theists, ironically, need a reason to "justify" why the universe is even here in the first place...
Non-theists seem to be comfortable saying "Who cares why. We're here. Fact." and are perfectly happy examining the universe from this perspective.
Why are we here v. We are here
