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SimPLLLLLLLe Jim "6-13" Harbaugh (B1G Suspenders McKhakiPants, Cheater Cheater Booger Eater)

I'll preface this by saying I'm on record as saying harbrau is a "good" coach. Good, yes. Great, no. Now, a couple points of order...

Hype machine? You realize that Michigan early in the season beat Colorado - a team that will be playing for the PAC championship?
A CU team that was handling them until their starting QB got injured. If that QB doesn't get knocked out of the game, I feel they win that game, as their offense fell apart with the backup.

That they crushed Penn State by 39? That they beat Wisconsin? That they beat Sparty by nine in East Lansing? Yes, they caught some scheduling breaks, but they matched the Buckeyes win-for-signature-win. That's not hype, that's on the field performance.
I'll give them credit for beating ped aggy. Howeva, it's worth noting they beat them at home. Playing them at home is a different animal than on the road, in a night game. Wiscy, again at home...a different animal than at Camp Randall under the lights. Sparty was a clunker for us on par with their Iowa clunker. Difference is we found a way to win. We also beat an Oklahoma team, on the road, that is now a top-10 team. If you wanna look at the body of work wrt to schedules, we have the more impressive body of work. If you factor in the makeup of the teams (scum's experience vs. our abundance of youth/inexperience), it's amplified even more so.

What has he ever won? Let's start with taking a miserable 49er team and getting them within a Ted Ginn* fumble of the Super Bowl and within a bad no call of the Super Bowl Championship the next year. How many NFL coaches have that on their resume?
* That was Kyle Williams, not Teddy Ginn.

I'm a Niners fan, so I feel I'm qualified to speak to this. He walked into a 49ers job that had a pretty stacked roster...especially on defense. They had been the victim of AWFUL coaching for years. Mike Nolan, and Mike Singletary...nuff said. Now, he deserves credit for making Alex Smith a serviceable NFL QB. But that was a former #1 overall pick, and lets not pretend he made him a superstar. He made him a game manager. Early on, it looked like he struck gold with Kaepernick. However, he and his OC (Greg Roman) made a grave error by trying to make Kap a pocket QB. Directly in conflict with what made Kap so effective early on. I point to that decision as the fulcrum point for his downfall in SF. Also, one of my big criticisms of him today, and when he was in SF is that he is not a good big game coach. He puckers up BIG TIME in pressure situations. Your cited SB appearance is a prime example. He has them 1st and Goal at the Ravens goalline with the game on the line. Instead of utilizing a bruising running game that was a hallmark of his SF teams, behind one of the best OL's in the league, he inexplicably calls FOUR pass plays. FOUR passes, ZERO runs on the goal line. Baffling. His teams got worse/sloppier each year. By year four, he had a near mutiny on his hands and I wouldn't have rated him as a top-10 coach in the NFL. 2014 was filled with poor performances, and maddening coaching decisions all year.

"Although many remember Appalachian State toppling Michigan at the Big House as the upset of the 2007 season, based on the point spread, Stanford over USC is the biggest upset in College Football history.
Maybe the biggest reason for the difference between a 42-0 drubbing in 2006 and a 24-23 victory in 2007 was the head coach, Jim Harbaugh. Harbaugh replaced Walt Harris in December of 2006 and the latter left Stanford with the lowest winning percentage of any coach in school history (.261). Under Harris, Stanford was a team without an identity. That all changed when Jim Harbaugh came...

How many times did Ohio State beat Pete Carroll and USC?

The 2010 season brought more success for Harbaugh and the Cardinal. The team went 11–1 in the regular season, with their only loss coming from Oregon, a team that was undefeated and earned a berth in the BCS National Championship Game. The first 11 win season in program history earned the Cardinal a #4 BCS ranking and a BCS bowl invitation to the Orange Bowl. Stanford defeated Virginia Tech 40–12 for the Cardinal's first bowl win since 1996 and the first BCS bowl victory in program history.[112] Second year starting quarterback Andrew Luck was the runner-up to for the Heisman Trophy, the second year in a row that the runner-up was from Stanford. Harbaugh was named the winner of the Woody Hayes Coach of the Year Award.[113]
He deserves credit for making Stanford a solid program. However, he had one really good year there with a generational QB. He did upset USC, but he had a number of bad losses too.

Now we can point and say things like "Well, yeah, but he had Andrew Luck..." but then you also need accept that he won twenty games with Wilton Speight and a kid that couldn't start at Iowa.
Here's the thing, and I think this is what most of us take exception with...yes, he won 20 games with what appear to be average QBs. However, that was mostly against some pretty bad teams. His record against good teams isn't sterling. 0-2 vs. tOSU. Lost to Sparty last year, beat a BAD sparty team this year. Lost to Utah last year. Lost to Iowa this year. When he plays good teams, he's not winning at a rate a supposed "elite" coach should. Everybody likes to make a big deal about him coaching Hoke's kids. Well, Hoke recruited pretty well for the same systems that Harbrau runs. It's not like he was walking into a huge mess, roster-wise. They were highly regarded recruits that needed somebody to actually coach them.


Finally, he came into Ohio Stadium, into a hostile home field, and had the Buckeyes on the ropes for all but the final five minutes of the game. Maybe he doesn't fit your definition of a closer and maybe he never wins an NC, but he's a far better coach than most of the folks out there.
Yes he did. His team played very well for three quarters. But that 4th Q and OT were classic Harbrau. He puckered up, lost his cool, and his team pissed a way what for all intents and purposes should have been a romp. His "veteran" team got outplayed in crunchtime by a bunch of kids, and he was outcoached by an ELITE coach.

Do I like Harbaugh? Hardly. He's obnoxious. His sideline mannerisms are immature. His criticism of the refs is uncalled for. BUT, he doesn't throw his players under the bus like a certain Leprechaun in South Bend, he's made Michigan relevant again in just two years, and while JT has slipped in skills, Rudock and Speight got better. He's a sure fire bet to do something crazy that will get him bounced from Ann Arbor, but it's pure hubris to brush off Michigan and Hairball as irrelevant.
I don't think anybody is saying he's "irrelevant", I think "overrated" is the sentiment. I know I'm willing to say he's a "good" coach. I've stated numerous time he's worlds better than the last two clowns they've had. But the results don't match the hype. In two of the last three games, when the chips were down, his teams blew it. That was his hallmark in the NFL, and in his first two years at scUM. Whoop the losers, pucker up against the good teams when it counts. I said earlier this week, I think Harbrau will have them in contention in the B1G most years, and get them to 9-11 wins regularly. However, until he proves otherwise, I'll continue to believe he lacks the makeup to win the big ones...which is what he was brought in for.
 
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Do you think JT is playing as well as he did in 2014? Maybe its the receivers, maybe it's my memory, but I don't remember him missing as many short passes as he did this year, let alone the long ball. I thought I saw someone who consistently overthrew his target, or flat out missed him. Your stats don't seem to reflect that, but that's what I thought I saw.

I could be totally wrong here, '14 seems like ages ago... but from what I recall the offense under JT in '14 seemed like a much quicker hitting offense. It was like, get the snap, two count and ball was gone... and between that with the effectiveness of the read-option kept the opposition on their heels.

I don't really recall JT going downfield a TON in '14. I have very clear memories of CJ doing it tho. :wink:
 
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I could be totally wrong here, '14 seems like ages ago... but from what I recall the offense under JT in '14 seemed like a much quicker hitting offense. It was like, get the snap, two count and ball was gone... and between that with the effectiveness of the read-option kept the opposition on their heels.

I don't really recall JT going downfield a TON in '14. I have very clear memories of CJ doing it tho. :wink:
Be did hit Devin quite a few times, but we don't have anybody like that this year at WR.
 
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A CU team that was handling them until their starting QB got injured. If that QB doesn't get knocked out of the game, I feel they win that game, as their offense fell apart with the backup.

I see analysts make this point over and over again but never mention the players that was missing for Michigan. Injuries are a part of the game. Michigan was missing 3 defensive starters in the game including their best pass rusher and arguably the best corner back in the country. It would have been an entirely different game if those guys were healthy. I honestly hope we can match up with them again with everybody healthy.
 
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The other two were so much more memorable...
I see analysts make this point over and over again but never mention the players that was missing for Michigan. Injuries are a part of the game. Michigan was missing 3 defensive starters in the game including their best pass rusher and arguably the best corner back in the country. It would have been an entirely different game if those guys were healthy. I honestly hope we can match up with them again with everybody healthy.

Only losers blame injuries...or the refs.
 
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I see analysts make this point over and over again but never mention the players that was missing for Michigan. Injuries are a part of the game. Michigan was missing 3 defensive starters in the game including their best pass rusher and arguably the best corner back in the country. It would have been an entirely different game if those guys were healthy. I honestly hope we can match up with them again with everybody healthy.

Remember statements like this when tsun fans spend the off season telling us how next year will somehow be better.
 
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I need to exit this discussion because I am baffled by some peoples inability to deal with facts and reality.

Some want the justification that UM is really good now to make them feel better about winning.

Here are the fact people.

tOSU has the best coach in the B10 and a guy who knows how to close.
tOSU is located in the State with the best HS talent in the Midwest (realize half of MSU team is from Ohio) heck I would be interested to see the percentage of starters on B10 teams from Ohio year in and year out. Realize there are 14 teams. So it should be about 1/14......but I bet you it is more like 1/9
tOSU is the best recruiting team in the B10 (top 5 in the Country)
tOSU has a massive fan base that supports the program (hear they bring the $$$$$$)

So you are trying to muster up energy and a belief that UM is on par with tOSU. NO ONE is on par with tOSU in the B10. Wisky, Iowa, MSU, Neb, and PSU are not on the same level in any of those categories. SCum has the fan base, and they have the $$$, and they can recruit. But they do not have the coaching in place and honestly they are too desperate to win. I know we all want to love Bo but he never won a NC and was poop in Bowl games. He just wanted to be the bully in his backyard. And the SCum program and fan base now want it all. But they are just not on that level. And I am not sure they even know or have a clue what it takes to compete at that level. It takes a different mindset and approach.

Do I think tOSU was great this season.....no. But I would not want to be playing them in a playoff game. Urban Meyer knows how to prepare and win NC. And I would not bet against them if they make it into the final game. The whole approach is to make it into the playoff. They screwed it up last year or they would be headed to their 3rd one in 3 years.

SCum is your local rival nothing more. What is the record the last 20 years? 15-5?
As with everything SCum related if you remove pre-1950 results they suddenly good but hardly great. 1 shared NC, and the record in the UM vs OSU game is 31-12-3 pre 1950 in SCum favor, post 1950 it is 36-27-3 in tOSU favor with the Cooper years LOL.

I am so sick of the belief that SCum is so great. They have just been doing it so damn long they have good numbers. But post 1950 I would not even rate them in the top 10 programs in the country and maybe much lower. Realize all programs go through some ups and down. But here are just a list since 1950 of teams that have shown to be better IMO:

tOSu
PSU (look at NC) yes I hate them and this may be a stretch
Neb
Texas
OKLA
Bama
FSU
Florida
Miami
USC

For me it is much more about achieving the highest marks rather than being consistently good enough to finish in the top 10.

In some way you have to be willing to red line it to win it all. And we all know that redlining it can cause the engine to blow. So while some of the programs above have been really good and at times pretty awful at other times they all have had long periods of success that also included winning it all.

SCum is a good program that consistently wins. But would any of the above fan bases be happy to have only really competed for a NC a couple of times in 50-60 years? Hell Tommy O at NEB damn near stroked out because he had not won a Natty until he did in the end.

And this is my big issue with Khaki. He is perfect for SCum because he is that program. It is all about the hype and tradition but it is not based on hard results. It is all about getting 9/10 wins and complaining that you got screwed. How about sacking up and getting it done? Go the distance. Don't make excuses make results.

This is one reason why I like MD at MSU. While that program will struggle to get the talent and the support from the fans base and University he never makes excuses or complains. He just grinds it out. And he is not unique in that regard. But the DFBIA lives in that we got robbed we are actually better than you world where the perception of the program is more important than the results to the fan base and University.
 
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I need to exit this discussion because I am baffled by some peoples inability to deal with facts and reality.

Some want the justification that UM is really good now to make them feel better about winning.

Here are the fact people.

tOSU has the best coach in the B10 and a guy who knows how to close.
tOSU is located in the State with the best HS talent in the Midwest (realize half of MSU team is from Ohio) heck I would be interested to see the percentage of starters on B10 teams from Ohio year in and year out. Realize there are 14 teams. So it should be about 1/14......but I bet you it is more like 1/9
tOSU is the best recruiting team in the B10 (top 5 in the Country)
tOSU has a massive fan base that supports the program (hear they bring the $$$$$$)

So you are trying to muster up energy and a belief that UM is on par with tOSU. NO ONE is on par with tOSU in the B10. Wisky, Iowa, MSU, Neb, and PSU are not on the same level in any of those categories. SCum has the fan base, and they have the $$$, and they can recruit. But they do not have the coaching in place and honestly they are too desperate to win. I know we all want to love Bo but he never won a NC and was poop in Bowl games. He just wanted to be the bully in his backyard. And the SCum program and fan base now want it all. But they are just not on that level. And I am not sure they even know or have a clue what it takes to compete at that level. It takes a different mindset and approach.

Do I think tOSU was great this season.....no. But I would not want to be playing them in a playoff game. Urban Meyer knows how to prepare and win NC. And I would not bet against them if they make it into the final game. The whole approach is to make it into the playoff. They screwed it up last year or they would be headed to their 3rd one in 3 years.

SCum is your local rival nothing more. What is the record the last 20 years? 15-5?
As with everything SCum related if you remove pre-1950 results they suddenly good but hardly great. 1 shared NC, and the record in the UM vs OSU game is 31-12-3 pre 1950 in SCum favor, post 1950 it is 36-27-3 in tOSU favor with the Cooper years LOL.

I am so sick of the belief that SCum is so great. They have just been doing it so damn long they have good numbers. But post 1950 I would not even rate them in the top 10 programs in the country and maybe much lower. Realize all programs go through some ups and down. But here are just a list since 1950 of teams that have shown to be better IMO:

tOSu
PSU (look at NC) yes I hate them and this may be a stretch
Neb
Texas
OKLA
Bama
FSU
Florida
Miami
USC

For me it is much more about achieving the highest marks rather than being consistently good enough to finish in the top 10.

In some way you have to be willing to red line it to win it all. And we all know that redlining it can cause the engine to blow. So while some of the programs above have been really good and at times pretty awful at other times they all have had long periods of success that also included winning it all.

SCum is a good program that consistently wins. But would any of the above fan bases be happy to have only really competed for a NC a couple of times in 50-60 years? Hell Tommy O at NEB damn near stroked out because he had not won a Natty until he did in the end.

And this is my big issue with Khaki. He is perfect for SCum because he is that program. It is all about the hype and tradition but it is not based on hard results. It is all about getting 9/10 wins and complaining that you got screwed. How about sacking up and getting it done? Go the distance. Don't make excuses make results.

This is one reason why I like MD at MSU. While that program will struggle to get the talent and the support from the fans base and University he never makes excuses or complains. He just grinds it out. And he is not unique in that regard. But the DFBIA lives in that we got robbed we are actually better than you world where the perception of the program is more important than the results to the fan base and University.


No need to exit the conversation because a couple of people don't agree with you.

I do not share @cincibuck worldview as it relates to tsun at all but he's a good guy and free to have his own opinions (no matter how wrong they may be).

The majority of the fun I derive from this place is the unmerciful breaking of tsun's balls (well that and all the free hookers and blow but you haven't been here long enough to get in on that yet). No one is going to get in the way of that, I assure you.
 
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No need to exit the conversation because a couple of people don't agree with you.

I do not share @cincibuck worldview as it relates to tsun at all but he's a good guy and free to have his own opinions (no matter how wrong they may be).

The majority of the fun I derive from this place is the unmerciful breaking of tsun's balls (well that and all the free hookers and blow but you haven't been here long enough to get in on that yet). No one is going to get in the way of that, I assure you.

The first rule of the hookers and blow club is that we don't talk about the hookers and blow club.

Someone needs to turn in their card for a couple of weeks.
 
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I need to exit this discussion because I am baffled by some peoples inability to deal with facts and reality.

Some want the justification that UM is really good now to make them feel better about winning.

Here are the fact people.

tOSU has the best coach in the B10 and a guy who knows how to close.
tOSU is located in the State with the best HS talent in the Midwest (realize half of MSU team is from Ohio) heck I would be interested to see the percentage of starters on B10 teams from Ohio year in and year out. Realize there are 14 teams. So it should be about 1/14......but I bet you it is more like 1/9
tOSU is the best recruiting team in the B10 (top 5 in the Country)
tOSU has a massive fan base that supports the program (hear they bring the $$$$$$)

So you are trying to muster up energy and a belief that UM is on par with tOSU. NO ONE is on par with tOSU in the B10. Wisky, Iowa, MSU, Neb, and PSU are not on the same level in any of those categories. SCum has the fan base, and they have the $$$, and they can recruit. But they do not have the coaching in place and honestly they are too desperate to win. I know we all want to love Bo but he never won a NC and was poop in Bowl games. He just wanted to be the bully in his backyard. And the SCum program and fan base now want it all. But they are just not on that level. And I am not sure they even know or have a clue what it takes to compete at that level. It takes a different mindset and approach.

Do I think tOSU was great this season.....no. But I would not want to be playing them in a playoff game. Urban Meyer knows how to prepare and win NC. And I would not bet against them if they make it into the final game. The whole approach is to make it into the playoff. They screwed it up last year or they would be headed to their 3rd one in 3 years.

SCum is your local rival nothing more. What is the record the last 20 years? 15-5?
As with everything SCum related if you remove pre-1950 results they suddenly good but hardly great. 1 shared NC, and the record in the UM vs OSU game is 31-12-3 pre 1950 in SCum favor, post 1950 it is 36-27-3 in tOSU favor with the Cooper years LOL.

I am so sick of the belief that SCum is so great. They have just been doing it so damn long they have good numbers. But post 1950 I would not even rate them in the top 10 programs in the country and maybe much lower. Realize all programs go through some ups and down. But here are just a list since 1950 of teams that have shown to be better IMO:

tOSu
PSU (look at NC) yes I hate them and this may be a stretch
Neb
Texas
OKLA
Bama
FSU
Florida
Miami
USC

For me it is much more about achieving the highest marks rather than being consistently good enough to finish in the top 10.

In some way you have to be willing to red line it to win it all. And we all know that redlining it can cause the engine to blow. So while some of the programs above have been really good and at times pretty awful at other times they all have had long periods of success that also included winning it all.

SCum is a good program that consistently wins. But would any of the above fan bases be happy to have only really competed for a NC a couple of times in 50-60 years? Hell Tommy O at NEB damn near stroked out because he had not won a Natty until he did in the end.

And this is my big issue with Khaki. He is perfect for SCum because he is that program. It is all about the hype and tradition but it is not based on hard results. It is all about getting 9/10 wins and complaining that you got screwed. How about sacking up and getting it done? Go the distance. Don't make excuses make results.

This is one reason why I like MD at MSU. While that program will struggle to get the talent and the support from the fans base and University he never makes excuses or complains. He just grinds it out. And he is not unique in that regard. But the DFBIA lives in that we got robbed we are actually better than you world where the perception of the program is more important than the results to the fan base and University.

OK, but before you take your exit, please show me where I said Michigan was equal to Ohio State at this point in time. If you go back further on this and other threads I've noted that Hairball took a half-assed approach to recruiting right after he signed with Michigan. Last year was pretty good for him, but not as goos as the Ohio State class and he's behind again this year. All of this, I pointed out, when added to his huge graduation losses will take him from on of the most senior laden teams in the Big, to one of the youngest. Meanwhile Urban just "survived" a year in which the buckeyes were the youngest team in college Div 1 football.

My point is that, over the long haul, given the alum base, the facilities, the money, the history that is Michigan football they are not going to be a distant second for long.
 
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My point is that, over the long haul, given the alum base, the facilities, the money, the history that is Michigan football they are not going to be a distant second for long.

Where are they making up ground on OSU?

They just had the best shot they could hope for and lost. Harbaugh with 45 SR's against Urban Meyer with a similar number of freshmen head to head on the field and the genius of Harbaugh did not prevail. Last year we saw what happened when Urban had the better team, it was an ass beating.

They are not closing the gap in recruiting.

Where is this big surge coming from?
 
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quiz time:

booger has 20 commitments so far for the '17 class. has he received more than 1.5 or fewer than 1.5 commitments from players ranked in the top 5 at their respective positions (per 247)?

bonus:

meyer has 16 commitments so far for the '17 class. has he received more than 11.5 or fewer than 11.5 commitments from players ranked in the top 5 at their respective positions (per 247)?
 
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