Shoelace and the Heisman - where's Denard finish?

[buxfan4life]

you guys are arguing over scUM player....GTFO

No way he's in the top 10......

Wow. Them's some thick homer glasses Tony.

Actually, Gator, he is right. As of today, he is twelfth.

1 Kellen Moore, QB BSU 135 91 67.4 1336 9.9 58 14 1 2 183.3
2 Cameron Newton, QB AUB 108 70 64.8 1138 10.5 94 12 5 7 180.7
3 Ricky Stanzi, QB IOWA 121 82 67.8 1226 10.1 66 10 2 10 176.8
4 Dan Persa, QB NW 177 138 78.0 1663 9.4 50 10 2 16 173.3
5 Stephen Garcia, QB SCAR 101 73 72.3 944 9.3 69 8 3 10 171.0
6 Terrelle Pryor, QB OSU 153 104 68.0 1349 8.8 65 15 3 11 170.5
7 Ryan Mallett, QB ARK 176 122 69.3 1748 9.9 85 13 6 9 170.3
8 Greg McElroy, QB ALA 137 99 72.3 1298 9.5 51 9 3 16 169.1
9 Kirk Cousins, QB MSU 145 99 68.3 1416 9.8 55 10 4 11 167.6
10 Andrew Luck, QB STAN 172 113 65.7 1538 8.9 81 16 4 3 166.9
RK PLAYER TEAM ATT COMP PCT YDS YDS/A LONG TD INT SACK RAT
11 Brandon Weeden, QB OKST 190 131 68.9 1610 8.5 81 18 6 5 165.1
12 Denard Robinson, QB MICH 125 84 67.2 1223 9.8 74 8 4 2 164.1
13 Jordan Wynn, QB UTAH 85 58 68.2 732 8.6 61 7 2 0 163.0
14 Chandler Harnish, QB NIU 112 80 71.4 927 8.3 58 8 1 6 162.7
15 Matt Barkley, QB USC 174 113 64.9 1517 8.7 61 15 4 6 162.0
16 Bryant Moniz, QB HAW 247 160 64.8 2245 9.1 80 18 4 12 161.9
17 Scott Tolzien, QB WIS 132 92 69.7 1201 9.1 45 7 2 5 160.6
18 Ryan Colburn, QB FRES 143 96 67.1 1250 8.7 59 12 6 12 159.9
19 Colin Kaepernick, QB NEV 150 106 70.7 1321 8.8 48 8 3 2 158.2
20 Zach Collaros, QB CIN 144 91 63.2 1180 8.2 69 12 1 18 158.1
RK PLAYER TEAM ATT COMP PCT YDS YDS/A LONG TD INT SACK RAT
21 Geno Smith, QB WVU 146 97 66.4 1139 7.8 48 12 2 7 156.3
22 Nick Foles, QB ARIZ 183 137 74.9 1529 8.4 51 9 5 10 155.8
23 Robert Griffin III, QB BAY 205 132 64.4 1735 8.5 94 13 2 6 154.5
24 Andy Dalton, QB TCU 138 92 66.7 1177 8.5 52 9 4 3 154.0
25 Ben Chappell, QB IND 188 132 70.2 1476 7.9 46 12 3 4 154.0
26 Darron Thomas, QB ORE 147 86 58.5 1213 8.3 84 14 5 2 152.4
27 Aaron Murray, QB UGA 157 97 61.8 1366 8.7 55 10 3 14 152.1
28 Tyrod Taylor, QB VT 122 74 60.7 1030 8.4 69 9 3 12 151.0
29 Adam Weber, QB MINN 171 102 59.6 1448 8.5 60 12 4 7 149.3
30 Adam Froman, QB LOU 139 83 59.7 1177 8.5 57 9 4 6 146.5
RK PLAYER TEAM ATT COMP PCT YDS YDS/A LONG TD INT SACK RAT
31 Ryan Nassib, QB SYR 127 73 57.5 989 7.8 48 10 2 9 145.7
32 Jeremiah Masoli, QB MISS 94 57 60.6 823 8.8 70 6 5 2 144.6
33 Mike Hartline, QB UK 188 125 66.5 1442 7.7 42 9 3 2 143.5
34 Corey Robinson, QB TROY 195 123 63.1 1503 7.7 79 11 3 11 143.4
35 Taylor Potts, QB TTU 243 161 66.3 1649 6.8 55 16 4 8 141.7
36 T.J. Yates, QB UNC 160 104 65.0 1170 7.3 97 8 1 11 141.7
37 Kevin Riley, QB CAL 123 74 60.2 931 7.6 62 9 4 7 141.4
38 Russell Wilson, QB NCST 242 144 59.5 1802 7.4 60 17 6 17 140.3
39 Kyle Padron, QB SMU 212 123 58.0 1564 7.4 67 16 5 12 140.2
40 Nathan Enderle, QB IDHO 176 112 63.6 1411 8.0 59 10 9 19 139.5


So, after 6 games he's 12th out of more than 100 starting QBs in the nation. Where do you draw the lines for great, good, average, mediocre, wish-he'd-transfer, wish-someone-would-injure him?

 

[NFBuck]

Really ??? Cause i think we saw the "REAL" Drob this sat. Nothing fancy and making mistakes. And from her on out, the D's stay semi-tuff. Plus scUMs D is getting worse putting more pressure on Drob. No homer at all, I myself was amazed in the first 5 games, and in my eyes it was his to lose. But i knew they havent played anyone. When was the last time a hiesman winners team went 7-5 ???

If he keeps up the msu pace, not a stretch, he'll still rack up 2300-2500 yards passing and 1300-1500 rushing. Add in 25-30 tds and he'll finish top-10 regardless of their record. Win it? No way, but he'll get some votes to place. Wait, are you talking about Heisman or passing efficiency?

 

[Tonyank]

you guys put your vcash where you want, and ill put mine where i want

 

[cincibuck]

Actually, that's precisely what you did in this post, which I already raised earlier and you side-stepped it

http://www.buckeyeplanet.com/forum/...v-un-64-5-3-30-et-abc-espn-2.html#post1788116

You scoffed at the notion that:

he hadn't faced a good defense in ND (even later bringing up their B10 candidacy as a rationale)
that MSU would change things for his play
Actually, you called his performance good, and when challenged on that point, you resorted to what he did in the other games, hence the frequent posts about you changing your argument.
And there's the 'dregs' thing again, despite the above post.

Read what I said. If you can find a major difference in the SOS of Michigan's first six games and Ohio State's then I will agree that his numbers were padded. I don't see one. Miami is no better or worse than Michigan State, both teams played Indiana and the jury is still out on Illinois.

The fact remains that the numbers were startling regardless of who Michigan played. Part of that had to do with the offense created for such a player and his need to be on the field, but to be fair the numbers of the other QBs benefitted from competition too -- and some of those other players benefitted from a better team to work with.

When, in pre-season, Robinson was discussed on this board I was skeptical and said so. Skeptical that he could pass and skeptical that he could run if teams knew he couldn't pass. I am still doubtful that he can go an entire season playing the style of offense RR has him playing, but for right now he's played beyond anyone's expectations.

 

[buckeyesin07]

When, in pre-season, Robinson was discussed on this board I was skeptical and said so. Skeptical that he could pass and skeptical that he could run if teams knew he couldn't pass. I am still doubtful that he can go an entire season playing the style of offense RR has him playing, but for right now he's played beyond anyone's expectations.

Serious question: what do you think of his passing now? Convinced he can pass? Still skeptical? Convinced that he can't pass?

IMO (and like I predicted in the UM-MSU game thread on Thursday or Friday), he's not an appreciably better passer than Denard 2009. He showed that this weekend against the 42nd ranked total defense in the country.

 

[NFBuck]

Read what I said. If you can find a major difference in the SOS of Michigan's first six games and Ohio State's then I will agree that his numbers were padded. I don't see one. Miami is no better or worse than Michigan State, both teams played Indiana and the jury is still out on Illinois.

The fact remains that the numbers were startling regardless of who Michigan played. Part of that had to do with the offense created for such a player and his need to be on the field, but to be fair the numbers of the other QBs benefitted from competition too -- and some of those other players benefitted from a better team to work with.

When, in pre-season, Robinson was discussed on this board I was skeptical and said so. Skeptical that he could pass and skeptical that he could run if teams knew he couldn't pass. I am still doubtful that he can go an entire season playing the style of offense RR has him playing, but for right now he's played beyond anyone's expectations.

You're totally changing the argument, again. Nobody is comparing his body of work to anybody else's, so what do other quarterbacks have to do with the fact that he put up huge numbers against bad defenses? Here's a bullet point breakdown of this entire saga:

• We all said his numbers, while undeniably eye popping, were run up against very bad defenses. We further stated that they would come back to earth once he started playing teams with decent-good defenses
• You chided us for taking away from his accomplishments.
• We argued back that we weren't taking away from what he's done, just saying that when he started facing stiffer competition, he wouldn't continue to run up the same types of numbers...that, in fact, we feel he's been a little overrated based on the quality of defenses he's played
• You came back with some off the wall retorts about some posters predicting uconn would beat them and that ND was a team wanted by the B10 and IU was in the B10
• We redirected back to our point that we think his numbers would begin to slip as he faced tougher competition
• scUM loses to Sparty, in large part, because of denard's miscues. Sparty largely contains him holding him to 50% odf his season average of rushing yards and forces him into 3 ugly interceptions. We say, "see, when faced with stiffer competition, he's pretty human...was exposed so to speak".
• You say he wasn't exposed, he still had a good day...despite 3 bad turnovers.
• From there you've tried to turn it into a comparison between what he did against bad teams and what others had, again ignoring the fact that we were never comparing him to anybody else.

It's incredibly frustrating. Look, all we are saying is that his numners, while mind boggling against bad competition, were inflated and were gonna return closer to the mean. Nobody's saying he sucks, I'm certainly not. I just think what you saw Saturday is pretty much what we're gonna see from here on out...not the denard we saw against the likes of NoD, IU, UMass, etc...

It's shifted back and forth so many times over, I'm actually getting dizzy.

 

[jwinslow]

Read what I said. If you can find a major difference in the SOS of Michigan's first six games and Ohio State's then I will agree that his numbers were padded. I don't see one.

I did read what you wrote. I read the sarcastic shots at folks for being homers, at the references to Terrelle Pryor's competition.

But that's not all you said, was it? That's the point, you mocked the notion that it was going to drop off (and now are claiming you didn't say that)

and now he's going to get his comeuppance because Michigan is going to play Michigan State, a team that just blew Notre Dame out of the water, while Dennard had to get lucky and score a last second TD to beat the same team.

People called you out primarily because of teh nature of your post, not your opinion. Instead of actually analyzing their defenses, you trotted out some strange trivia facts and human perceptions as though they represent the defense.

Denard hasn't faced a good defense because he's played against Notre Dame -- a team the Big 10 has all but begged to join the conference

For their revenue, prestige and potential, not for their defense in 2010, which certainly has not been good (they aren't even mediocre at this point).

UConn a team most BP posters picked to kick Michigan's ass

Which is why preseason polls are foolish. They got embarrassed by Temple.

and U Mass because they're like Marshall or OU or EMU but with different names and jerseys

Which isn't a rebuttal of them being a bad defense.

 

[Gatorubet]

Actually, Gator, he is right. As of today, he is twelfth.

Did he mean Heisman ranking or qb ratings ranking? The thread title led me to think the comment addressed the former, so someone posting a list of the latter does not automatically refute it.

If TP had put up those numbers his [strike]freshman[/strike] sophomore year tOSU would have had to copyright "No homo" due to its frequency and usage by Buckeye fans.

 

[jwinslow]

It's incredibly frustrating. Look, all we are saying is that his numners, while mind boggling against bad competition, were inflated and were gonna return closer to the mean. Nobody's saying he sucks, I'm certainly not. I just think what you saw Saturday is pretty much what we're gonna see from here on out...not the denard we saw against the likes of NoD, IU, UMass, etc...

I think he'll play better than that (Iowa could be included), but the days of 500 yds almost every week are over (at least for this season).

 

[Gatorubet]

I think he'll play better than that (Iowa could be included), but the days of 500 yds almost every week are over (at least for this season).

Yeah - you'd have to have yeller and blue homer glasses to think otherwise as to that reality. Still, that was some amazing performance.

 

[NFBuck]

I think he'll play better than that (Iowa could be included), but the days of 500 yds almost every week are over (at least for this season).

I agree. Yeah, he might not throw 3 awful INTs every week, but you could see that his passing is still very much a work in progress. When forced to make reads or throw more than 10 yards downfield, he struggles...mightily. I've seen the dropped passes as an excuse in multiple places, but just one of those was on a throw of any merit. Most of them were the simple 3-5 yard tosses that have padded his completion % stats.

I'm sure he'll continue to reach roughly 200 yp and 75-125 yr based on the nature of the offense and his place in it, but I think many more turnovers/mistakes are going to be peppered in as he's forced to become a more compete player. He's not there yet. He has tremendous potential and is gonna end up breaking a slew of records before he's done, but I think most of us agree that he's still a bit of a work in progress.

He's a great kid, and he's good for CFB, but the state of that program isn't going to improve appreciably until they get some people that can tackle anyway.

 

[RugbyBuck]

He's a clown. That stupid shyte-eating grin after throwing his 3rd pick should take him out of the running for the Heisman regardless of statistics. Hopefully Brian Rolle does a Katzenmoyer immitation on him.

 

[cincibuck]

I did read what you wrote. I read the sarcastic shots at folks for being homers, at the references to Terrelle Pryor's competition.

But that's not all you said, was it? That's the point, you mocked the notion that it was going to drop off (and now are claiming you didn't say that)People called you out primarily because of teh nature of your post, not your opinion. Instead of actually analyzing their defenses, you trotted out some strange trivia facts and human perceptions as though they represent the defense.
For their revenue, prestige and potential, not for their defense in 2010, which certainly has not been good (they aren't even mediocre at this point).
Which is why preseason polls are foolish. They got embarrassed by Temple.
Which isn't a rebuttal of them being a bad defense.

Look if you take credit away from Robinson's performances against all but Michigan State -- and some of you want to take that away too -- then you have to follow through and suggest that other QBs need to be analyzed in such a manner. Take away UConn for Robinson? Then take away Marshall for Pryor. Take away U Mass, take away EMU. You can go through that list of top rated qbs and see how close the performances stack up.

 

[Mike80]

Look if you take credit away from Robinson's performances against all but Michigan State -- and some of you want to take that away too -- then you have to follow through and suggest that other QBs need to be analyzed in such a manner. Take away UConn for Robinson? Then take away Marshall for Pryor. Take away U Mass, take away EMU. You can go through that list of top rated qbs and see how close the performances stack up.

You've got a REAL issue when someone criticizes scUM, huh?

 

[jwinslow]

Look if you take credit away from Robinson's performances against all but Michigan State -- and some of you want to take that away too -- then you have to follow through and suggest that other QBs need to be analyzed in such a manner. Take away UConn for Robinson? Then take away Marshall for Pryor. Take away U Mass, take away EMU.

Yet again, that's not what is being discussed.

They said Denard wouldn't do this against better defenses.
You mocked them for it...
...yet that's exactly what happened (even though MSU is on the lower end of Oct/Nov defenses they'll face).


Your strange rebuttal of b10 invitations, memberships and Pryor hypocrisy doesn't change what was being discussed: whether facing his first tough defense (something else you mocked) would be a different story for Denard.

But since you are so driven with this equal opportunity thing, we'll go there for the first time:

Pryor won't put up EMU like numbers when he plays Wisconsin or Iowa....

...and if he turns it over 3 more times than he scores, it will not be a good outing, nor will lots of good games against bad defenses change that.

You can go through that list of top rated qbs and see how close the performances stack up.

I did. Over half of them have played multiple tough defenses, despite your claim otherwise.