Refuted: 2007 Illinois --Best in Big Ten?

[Jaxbuck]

it's not a stretch to call them the best in the conference. .

The bet is $1,000 US Dollars. I'll be kind and say no points even though you ran your mouth on that topic as well. Find someone we can both agree to moderate this and we can both put the money in that persons paypal account to act as escrow untill the game is played.


Every post you have made in this thread has been to defend the author, the article, or the argument that Illinois is the better team. All of the circular talk doesn't suprise me in the least coming from a guy who is supposedly a fan of two different fucking teams.

If you honestly think Illinois is better and will win then put the cash up. If not shut your fucking hole.

PM me for details on the money.

 

[sandgk]

That's a wonderful analysis, but you're putting words in my mouth.

You know what, I don't like that when it happens to me - so I take that seriously.
And, when I re-read the entire thread (instead of what everyone else interjected later) I see that is so.
Mea Culpa.

I said Illinois lost to a better team than the one OSU beat, and that's all. I didn't say it was a more impressive game than beating Purdue - in fact, earlier I specifically said I think it's a better game than the one OSU played against Akron. Not Purdue. Losing to a better team than the one OSU beat could cover a lot of ground. Tulane losing to LSU or Idaho losing to USC falls under that category, it doesn't mean I think they were better games for the losing team.

Got it on the re-read.

Pshew. 90% of what I've had to argue in this thread is people misinterpreting my words or taking them several steps too far.....I suppose I'm fortunate nobody's accused me of backtracking, I spend most of my effort having to clarify what I say.

You had to ask for this didn't you? :tongue2:

Nice.Perfectly capable? Anyone is perfectly capable. Thats a convienent way to act like your making a bold statement you can then back track 100mph on later by saying "I just said they were capable, not that they would win.."

By the way - I do stick firm with my belief that Missouri should beat Purdue on a neutral field. Considering Purdue's schedule, I don't put a lot of stock in their accomplishments so far. Never mind the rankings, Purdue hadn't even played a team with bowl hopes til the OSU game. Mizzou has played some far more impressive teams - a 41-6 beating of Nebraska sounds much better to me than beating up on CMU or Eastern Illinois. Maybe we'll find out the answer to this question in the Alamo Bowl

Schedule vs. Statistical Advantage (avoided that dreaded word "Schematic") that, at this point in the season is the real question. One thing I believe is that a leopard rarely changes it's spots. Mizzou has played a tougher schedule, but their tendencies are fairly well established. Mizzou at 100th in the nation against the pass this far into the season isn't going to vault into a top 20 Pass D in the next 6 games.
Likewise, Purdue would likely have a much easier time passing against a 100th ranked Pass D than they did against tOSU.
Disagreeing with Dryden, yet still being of sound mind and body, I would pick Purdue over Mizzou on a neutral site - today.

The one thing you do keep saying (and I'm sure of this having carefully scrutinized your wording) is that anyone underestimating Illinois would do so at their peril. That is true. What does not follow perforce is the notion that Illinois is the best team in the Conference.

If you believe that, it is a leap on your part. (Nobody is underestimating Illinois this year round here - though confessionally they have absolutely surprised me with their improved play).

Last and notably, the assertion spurring the article is somewhat different from the one I quote of yours. On Matt Hayes' part he asserts that because Illinois has higher quality wins (and how many he does not compute) they are therefore the best in the conference. Now - do you agree with both Matt's premise and conclusion for the reason stated by him? Or, do you agree with the premise, but not with the conclusion?

 

[BrutusBobcat]

Okay, Illinois looks pretty good primarily because they've improved while the rest of the teams in the conference not named Ohio State decided to go hide in a hole for football season. Wisconsin was the weakest #5 we'd had since TSUN held the spot before week 1, but it's now a marquee win for Zooker. By that logic, the best team in the conference is Appy State.

Right now, I am not sure that Illinois is even the second best team in the conference. They might be, and with a win over TSUN, I'll grant them that.

You have to judge by what you see on the field, not just a won-loss column. Any computer algorithm can do that. Of course, the computers still think that OSU is the best team in the conference.

When it's all said and done, would I be surprised to see Illinois finish #2? A little. If my money were on the line, I'd put them at #3 at best. For them to win the conference would take an upset of Northwestern over TSUN proportions. (Note to HtM, WE are not the team that has allowed Northwestern to go to the Rose Bowl. You all have some 'splainin' to do.)

I can't even justify the "good loss to Missouri" stuff with a rebuttal. That's the same logic that got Charlie and The Cheeseburger Factory a contract extension past the next ice age. Sell.

With that said, props to Illinois for the biggest win they've had since probably 2001. Now that everyone sees you coming, good luck with the rest of the season. Maybe the TSUNners will do a Maize out for you.

Edit: BTW, just for HtM -- I understand that you're not agreeing fully with the article, just entertaining the possibility that it might be correct. I do not entertain that it might be correct. As far as I am concerned, it is journalistic fantasy. Illinois is simply not the best team in the conference by any reasonable evaluation. A good team, yes, and if you read the threads on this board, several posters have called it our toughest or second toughest remaining game. That is reasonable.

 

[Taosman]

Illinois defense is giving up an avg. 20 points a game....with most of those games at home.
Our defense is giving up.....7 avg. With 2 tough away games.

Illinois offense is avg. 30 a game.
Ohio State offense is avg. 33 a game.

 

[osugrad21]

That JaxBuck is one sexy ass Ho when she be all fired up an shit...

DAYUM.

 

[OCBucksFan]

Well that Missagain game will be interesting, it's at Illinois and scUM won't be favored. Honestly, I think next to the Bucks it will be their toughest opponent, last year they gave us one helluva run for our money, and no matter what scUM fan thinks their team is really down this year. That game will be gauge of how good Illinois is, there's a lot of pressure that goes with most Big10 teams playing them, and if they can get past that I think they can probably squeek one out. Time will tell, for now, I am happy they are getting some props, talk about a team that's been the butt of every joke for a long time.

It's definately a year for the underdog.

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

That JaxBuck is one sexy ass Ho when she be all fired up an shit...

DAYUM.

Shitchyaaah...

 

[jlb1705]

There's a whole lot of talk about who beat who in this thread, and a lot of meaningless opinion (not just by you).

But I'm waiting for somebody to mention Wyoming somehow.

I'm waiting for somebody to mention Appalachian State.

 

[sandgk]

I'm waiting for somebody to mention Appalachian State.

That would be cruel and unusual punishment.

 

[HailToMichigan]

You know what, I don't like that when it happens to me - so I take that seriously.
And, when I re-read the entire thread (instead of what everyone else interjected later) I see that is so.
Mea Culpa.

Got it on the re-read.

You had to ask for this didn't you? :tongue2:



Schedule vs. Statistical Advantage (avoided that dreaded word "Schematic") that, at this point in the season is the real question. One thing I believe is that a leopard rarely changes it's spots. Mizzou has played a tougher schedule, but their tendencies are fairly well established. Mizzou at 100th in the nation against the pass this far into the season isn't going to vault into a top 20 Pass D in the next 6 games.
Likewise, Purdue would likely have a much easier time passing against a 100th ranked Pass D than they did against tOSU.
Disagreeing with Dryden, yet still being of sound mind and body, I would pick Purdue over Mizzou on a neutral site - today.

The one thing you do keep saying (and I'm sure of this having carefully scrutinized your wording) is that anyone underestimating Illinois would do so at their peril. That is true. What does not follow perforce is the notion that Illinois is the best team in the Conference.

If you believe that, it is a leap on your part. (Nobody is underestimating Illinois this year round here - though confessionally they have absolutely surprised me with their improved play).

Last and notably, the assertion spurring the article is somewhat different from the one I quote of yours. On Matt Hayes' part he asserts that because Illinois has higher quality wins (and how many he does not compute) they are therefore the best in the conference. Now - do you agree with both Matt's premise and conclusion for the reason stated by him? Or, do you agree with the premise, but not with the conclusion?

Let me do this: I'll quote the assertions in the article that I agree with.

"Illinois has better wins than anyone in the Big Ten."

With all due respect to OSU's wins over Washington and Purdue, this I agree with. Collectively, I believe Wisconsin, Penn State, and Indiana (who I think is almost certainly bowl-bound) comprise a better resume than Washington and Purdue.

"Illinois will score - with a punishing ground game - on anyone in the Big Ten."

Again with all due respect to OSU's defense, I believe there isn't a defense in the conference that can bottle up Illinois' attack for a full 60. Their rushing attack is top-5 in the country.

"No team in the Big Ten has this much dynamic ability at the three key positions - QB, tailback, wideout - as Illinois."

Combined - yes, I agree. There are better quarterbacks, better running backs, and better wideouts. Not on the same team.

"'We're getting there,' says linebacker J Leman. 'We've got to play at the same level as the offense; the same attitude.' If that happens, this team will be in Pasadena in January."

Again, yes. If the defense can play as well as the offense, that would probably leap Illinois into top-5 in the country. Hell, if their defense were to live up to the praise so far lavished upon the offense in this article, they'd be favored to beat damn near anyone. But the defense hasn't distinguished themselves, to say the least.

So the answer to your question is, I agree with the premise, but Hayes comes to two conclusions: They're the best team in the Big Ten; and they'll be in Pasadena (where the best team in the Big Ten goes) if their defense steps it way the hell up. I agree with the latter but not the former, because "They're the best team in the conference" implies that the defense is worthy of that assertion, and it's not.

That said, I still don't think it's a stretch to call Illinois the best team in the conference, because I'm not counting out their defense. I also don't think it's a stretch to call OSU the best team in the conference, and I also don't think it's a stretch to call Michigan the best team in the conference. (Call me biased, call me a lone keeper of the faith, but I think all the games left on UM's schedule are winnable. Which you can also say for Illinois and OSU.)

The bet is $1,000 US Dollars.

The fuck you think I even have $1,000 to bet on the damn sun coming up tomorrow, let alone a stupid argument on the Interwebs?? No worries. I'll just have Alfred sell the Ferrari, shall I?

But I'm waiting for somebody to mention Wyoming somehow.

Aiyowtch. I think somebody just did :( we are NOT a good road team....you were almost able to throw MTSU in there too.

 

[BrutusBobcat]

I'm waiting for somebody to mention Appalachian State.

Card played. Apparently, no one reads my posts.

 

[Jaxbuck]

The fuck you think I even have $1,000 to bet on the damn sun coming up tomorrow, let alone a stupid argument on the Interwebs?? No worries. I'll just have Alfred sell the Ferrari, shall I?

I could have said $10 and you'd find an excuse to not take it. You lack faith in your convictions. If you believe something then stand by it, don't pussy around qualifying everything..."well what I meant was...I agree with this part but not that.." this isn't philosophy class or a bunch of mealy mouth politicians debating.

You either believe what you originally opened your suckhole about(UI was the best team) or you do not. As is easy to see by the backtracking and sidestepping, you don't really believe that shit, you just felt like arguing.

 

[23Skidoo]

 

[Brutus1]

Again with all due respect to OSU's defense, I believe there isn't a defense in the conference that can bottle up Illinois' attack for a full 60. Their rushing attack is top-5 in the country.

This thread got way out of hand. I'll very much disagree with your statement here. In November, we'll find out for sure. I think tOSU's defensive speed will more than be ebough to stop that rushing attack, IMO.


, and I also don't think it's a stretch to call Michigan the best team in the conference.

Have you watched that defense this year?

 

[DaddyBigBucks]

Maybe we should add the words "HTM says" at the beginning of the title of this thread. It would make more sense that way.

After this post...

Blah blah blah, blah, blah...Illinois is now the greatest team in the Big Ten in the past 30 years, they're the new Northwestern 1995, this is just like 2001, they've almost beaten a quality opponent, which is awesome and makes Notre Dame BCS eligible every year, we suck because our Big Ten schedule was front-loaded with the doormats, and since we made Purdue look silly they're not as good, but alas since Illinois beat mammoth Wisconsin that makes them historically great and us mediocre, Benn is the next Gale Sayers and Archie Griffin, all rolled into one, Zook is the greatest recruiter ever since Pete Carroll, if we would have had to play Iowa in 2002 we would have lost and Trev Alberts would have masturbated, Juice Williams keeps cereal crispier in milk than Boeckman ever could, Mendenhall can cut through a tin can as easily as a tomato, Lauranitis couldn't have cracked the 5-deep at LB on any of Gary Moeller's Illinois teams that won 6 games in 3 years...

Come on, does anyone take these media wonks seriuously? Their entire purpose in life is to write dumb shit in an attempt to piss people off so they can feel good about themselves. Why care? Everyone is tired of hearing about OSU and Michigan every year, so every Barry Alvarez Rose Bowl berth or Northwestern revitalization or one-year-flash-in-the-pan like Illinois and Iowa have been or arrival of a "modern" coach like Joe Tiller is treated like the 2nd coming of Jesus (or Notre Dame beating Navy). Aren't we used to this by now?

And don't we play Illinois? So here's the thing, we kick the crap out of them, then everyone will shut up, if they win, well, they were better than us after all. Next.

...there was absolutely no reason for any post to be made in this thread unless you felt like taking HTM to task for agreeing with the premise.

Then there was this...

Here's the Big Ten's "Method to Determine Big Ten Conference Automatic Representative to Bowl Championship Series". It doesn't say anything about "better wins" as a factor to represent the Big Ten in the Rose Bowl:

Effective for bowl games following the 2006-09 regular football seasons, the Bowl Championship Series (BCS) will consist of five (5) bowl games: BCS National Championship Game, Rose Bowl, Fiesta Bowl, Orange Bowl, and Sugar Bowl. Participation by a Big Ten Conference member institution will be determined as follows:

1. BCS National Championship Game. In the event the conference has one or two football teams ranked No. 1 and/or No. 2 in the final BCS poll, these conference team(s) shall participate in the BCS National Championship Game.
2. Rose Bowl. Unless ranked No. 1 or No. 2 in the final BCS poll, the conference champion shall participate in the Rose Bowl. The championship shall be determined on the percentage basis of conference games (tie games counts ? win and ? loss). If there is a tie for the championship, the Rose Bowl representative will be determined as follows:
   1. An ineligible team shall not be considered in the standings for determination of the conference representative.
   2. If there is a tie for the championship, the winner of the game between these two teams shall represent the conference.
   3. If there is still a tie for the championship, or if the tied teams did not play each other, the team that played more games against Football Championship Subdivision (FCS) teams shall be eliminated.
   4. If there is still a tie, or if the tied teams did not play each other, or if both teams played the same number of games against an FCS team(s), the representative shall be determined on the percentage basis of all games played.
   5. If there is still a tie, the most recent team earning BCS automatic selection shall be eliminated.
   6. If more than two teams tie for the championship, the same selection procedures shall be followed with the following exceptions:
      1. If three teams are tied, and if one team defeated both of the other teams, then that team shall be the representative.
      2. If three teams are still tied, and if two of the three teams defeated the third team, the third team is eliminated, and the remaining two teams shall revert to the two-team tie procedure.
      3. If three teams are still tied, and there is a tie game between two of the three teams, or if two or all three of the teams did not play each other, the representative shall be determined on a percentage basis of all games played except, if one or two of the tied teams played more games against an FCS opponent than the other tied teams, then said team or teams shall be eliminated, and the remaining two teams, if applicable, shall revert to the two-team tie procedure.
      4. If three teams are still tied, and one of the three teams is eliminated through the percentage basis of all games played, the remaining two teams shall revert to the two-team tie procedure.
      5. If three teams are still tied, and all three teams have the same winning percentage of all games played, the most recent team representing the conference shall be eliminated, and the two remaining teams shall revert to the two-team tie procedure.
   7. If four or more teams tie for the championship, the following selection procedure shall be followed:
      1. If one team defeated each of the other three teams, then that team shall be the representative.
      2. If two of the four teams defeated each of the other two teams, the latter two teams shall be eliminated, and the two remaining teams shall revert to the two-team tie procedure.
      3. If three of the four teams defeated the fourth team, the fourth team is eliminated, and the remaining three teams shall revert to the three-team tie procedure.
      4. If there is a tie game between two of the four teams, or if two of the four teams did not play each other, the representative shall be determined on a percentage of all games played, except, if one or more of the tied teams played more games against an FCS opponent than the other tied teams, then said teams shall be eliminated, and the remaining teams, if applicable, shall revert to the two- or three-team tie procedure.
      5. If one of the four teams is eliminated through the percentage of all games played, the remaining three teams shall revert to the three-team tie procedure.
      6. If all four teams are still tied and have the same winning percentage of all games played, the most recent team representing the conference shall be eliminated and the three remaining teams shall revert to the three-team tie procedure.

Method to Determine Big Ten Conference Automatic Representative to Bowl Championship Series ::

...which would have proved to be another conversation killer IF it weren't for people wanting to keep HTM spinning.

I think all we've learned here is that Jax has the courage of his convictions and he has more discretionary income than HTM.

Of course, I knew that already. I've been to Jax's house...

And oh BTW, HTM: I'll bet you $1000 (or $10, your choice) that Jax's wife is hotter than yours too.