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Reds tidbits (2010 season)

Oh well, at least the Reds aren't paying Cordero a pooptillion dollars for this. Oh wait, they are...

Would have been better to just stick one of those garden gnomes on the mound for the 9th.
 
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I want somebody close to Cinci to go to the post game interviews every day and ask why Cordero still gets the ball in save situations. Ask after every single game. It is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in baseball. How many times does he have to blow it or nearly blow it before he loses the job?
 
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BuckeyeNation27;1747243; said:
I want somebody close to Cinci to go to the post game interviews every day and ask why Cordero still gets the ball in save situations. Ask after every single game. It is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in baseball. How many times does he have to blow it or nearly blow it before he loses the job?

He's essentially a slightly less-fat Armando Benitez and he somehow had a 10 year career. I don't know how he had that long of a career either - he has to be the all-time leader in blown saves.
 
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As of 2006 it was Goose Gossage with 112 and no current guys in the top 10. Might be some in the top 10 now I'd guess. Have to be at least 80 BS though. Thats a freaking ton.

You figure most guys wont get more than say 10-12 in a year so they'd have to do it for at least 8 years at that horrid stretch. Cordero is listed as having 281 saves in 343 opportunities. That isnt very good imo. Basically 10 years of bullpen work with his best season arguably being '04. Believe it or not 39 out of 43 was last season and his second best year.

His ERA this season is his worst as a closer by far. His WHiP is what really kills him. Way too many freaking base runners.
 
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Bestbuck36;1747263; said:
As of 2006 it was Goose Gossage with 112 and no current guys in the top 10. Might be some in the top 10 now I'd guess. Have to be at least 80 BS though. Thats a freaking ton.

You figure most guys wont get more than say 10-12 in a year so they'd have to do it for at least 8 years at that horrid stretch. Cordero is listed as having 281 saves in 343 opportunities. That isnt very good imo. Basically 10 years of bullpen work with his best season arguably being '04. Believe it or not 39 out of 43 was last season and his second best year.

His ERA this season is his worst as a closer by far. His WHiP is what really kills him. Way too many freaking base runners.

The historical average save rate in the majors is 68%. Of course that is for teams, and set up men will often get blown saves but never get a chance at an actual save. So closers should be at a much higher rate (just above 80%).

Coco is about average over his career (as he is for this year....I believe his save % is 16th out of 30 closers). He was a setup man for part of his career. To get a truer percentage you need to include holds, which he has 36, making his percentage 83.6%. That would make him right about average, and very close to this year's save %. In other words, no where near worth $12 million.

BTW...there have been articles written about saves in MLB. Since the invention of the 1 inning closer, the MLB save rate has not changed at all. In other words, 1 inning specialized closers have created zero benefits to a team. Of course with the steroid era in there you would think save % would go down (more runs scored would normally mean more lead changes, and therefore lower save percentages). I have not really looked at trends in the last few years.
 
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scott91575;1747272; said:
BTW...there have been articles written about saves in MLB. Since the invention of the 1 inning closer, the MLB save rate has not changed at all. In other words, 1 inning specialized closers have created zero benefits to a team. Of course with the steroid era in there you would think save % would go down (more runs scored would normally mean more lead changes, and therefore lower save percentages). I have not really looked at trends in the last few years.

It's a topic I'd love to discuss when I had more time to do some research but anecdotaly I'd say a truly elite 1 inning closer (how to define that is issue #1) does in fact help increase a teams chances of winning (important distinction bewteen that and a "save"). For an obvious example, having a Mariano Rivera as the closer will in fact help a team win more than say a Francisco Cordero.

Since I am not doing any research for my PhD in baseball I'd just go to Fangraphs or some such site and look at all relievers and their "value" stats-RAR/WAR etc*. It's not perfect due mainly to the volatile nature and small sample sizes inherent to the position but it gives you a very good sense of what a reliever brings to a team in terms of differential between he and a replacement level player.*giving a general description of value stats for those unfamiliar, not trying to talk down to those who are familiar with them.

Cordero has a -.3 RAR and a 0.0 WAR. Essentially this means he is no more effective than putting any replacement level pitcher on the mound every night in a rule book save situation. Anyone can eyeball Cordero and see he's not good and intuitively decide from there that the "save" stat is obviously a flawed measure if used in a vacuum to determine a pitchers worth.

There is no doubt in my mind Dusty knows this guy is at the end of his rope but The Dusty is in a tight spot here because there certainly isn't a clear cut alternative and he has to protect his player. So in an absurd twist of reality Dusty is, without knowing it I'm sure, using the concept that any pitcher can go into a save situation and save a decent % of games to his advantage. He's using a replacement level pitcher (Cordero) to close which protects that players psyche and keeps the psyche of all the other not ready for prime time pitchers in order because they aren't being thrust into a role that will set them up for failure.

I'm not saying I agree with it or that he's right but imo, that's what he's doing while hoping against hope Cordero unfucks himself or someone else steps up.

IMO, its a situation Walt is going to have to fix because Dusty is just going to be too loyal to Cordero and there isn't a strong enough in house candidate. So what is Walt going to do? Trading for a true closer is a non issue, they are far too expensive and you still owe Cordero an ass ton of money. He tried the dumpster dive approach but Izzy looks like they kicked him out of GNR for a reason. Everyone wants to see Chapman but I don't think for one second Dusty is going to let him close over the veteran Cordero unless Cordero gets a lot worse. Just as a wild ass guess, based on usage patterns, I'd say that the only other current Reds pitcher Dusty might use as a closer is Masset.

So in summary I think all Reds fans better pray that Cordero unfucks himself because I don't see any other solutions on the horizon in 2010 except for possibly Masset.
 
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Jaxbuck;1747324; said:
It's a topic I'd love to discuss when I had more time to do some research but anecdotaly I'd say a truly elite 1 inning closer (how to define that is issue #1) does in fact help increase a teams chances of winning (important distinction bewteen that and a "save"). For an obvious example, having a Mariano Rivera as the closer will in fact help a team win more than say a Francisco Cordero.

Since I am not doing any research for my PhD in baseball I'd just go to Fangraphs or some such site and look at all relievers and their "value" stats-RAR/WAR etc*. It's not perfect due mainly to the volatile nature and small sample sizes inherent to the position but it gives you a very good sense of what a reliever brings to a team in terms of differential between he and a replacement level player.*giving a general description of value stats for those unfamiliar, not trying to talk down to those who are familiar with them.

Cordero has a -.3 RAR and a 0.0 WAR. Essentially this means he is no more effective than putting any replacement level pitcher on the mound every night in a rule book save situation. Anyone can eyeball Cordero and see he's not good and intuitively decide from there that the "save" stat is obviously a flawed measure if used in a vacuum to determine a pitchers worth.

There is no doubt in my mind Dusty knows this guy is at the end of his rope but The Dusty is in a tight spot here because there certainly isn't a clear cut alternative and he has to protect his player. So in an absurd twist of reality Dusty is, without knowing it I'm sure, using the concept that any pitcher can go into a save situation and save a decent % of games to his advantage. He's using a replacement level pitcher (Cordero) to close which protects that players psyche and keeps the psyche of all the other not ready for prime time pitchers in order because they aren't being thrust into a role that will set them up for failure.

I'm not saying I agree with it or that he's right but imo, that's what he's doing while hoping against hope Cordero unfucks himself or someone else steps up.

IMO, its a situation Walt is going to have to fix because Dusty is just going to be too loyal to Cordero and there isn't a strong enough in house candidate. So what is Walt going to do? Trading for a true closer is a non issue, they are far too expensive and you still owe Cordero an ass ton of money. He tried the dumpster dive approach but Izzy looks like they kicked him out of GNR for a reason. Everyone wants to see Chapman but I don't think for one second Dusty is going to let him close over the veteran Cordero unless Cordero gets a lot worse. Just as a wild ass guess, based on usage patterns, I'd say that the only other current Reds pitcher Dusty might use as a closer is Masset.

So in summary I think all Reds fans better pray that Cordero unfucks himself because I don't see any other solutions on the horizon in 2010 except for possibly Masset.

of course Rivera is better than Cordero. Yet the point is making Rivera a 1 inning guy that pitches only for saves vs. making him a 3 inning guy like days of old is not a benefit. The whole 1 inning guy closer has lead to guys like Cordero being overpaid and does not help the team win any more than using a bullpen by committee or using your best reliever in situations other than a 9th inning save. In other words, it overvalues something that is no benefit to a team vs. the way bullpens used to be used.

If Cordero was not overpaid thanks to the use of 1 inning closers it would be easier to replace him. In the end I understand why it exists and will never go away. The best bullpen arms need a stat so they can get paid. In order to rack up those stats they need to be one inning guys at the end of the game. If a team does not do that, a top bullpen guy won't want to pitch for that team. It's a catch 22. Yet in the end having your best reliever only used for 1 inning at the end of the game has not lead to better team save percentages.
 
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Bucknut24;1747391; said:
good outing from Bailey today, 0 runs 3 hits 0 walks, 4 strikeouts

Cairo hits one outta here!! 2-0 Reds, Bailey now in line for the win

It really seemed he used his splitter more than he did at the start of the year. I am not sure if he couldn't throw it earlier, or someone tried to get him to stop using it. Yet it's pretty clear it's an important pitch for him to he effective.
 
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