RB Erik Haw (official thread)

[BuckStocksHere]

I think these numbers are getting ridiculous. 4.21? come on. that is Deion Sanders in his prime #'s. I doubt it. I doubt everyone below a 4.4. Seriously, all these kids aren't running sub 4.3's and 4.4's. I think these #'s are pushed lower to help the kids in recruiting. Think about it... say you were a RB or whatever position...and say you ran a 4.5. hmmmm. not great "according to today's ridiculous standards". But say you fudge it a little and make it a 4.42. Hey.. now it looks fast. What is .08 anyway? right? right.

If I see electronically timed #'s and a standard track... ok. I just don't believe that ALL these kids are running these 4.2's and what not. This goes for ALL kids... not just our boys. I hope he does run that fast...it would be sweet. I think those #'s are just innacurate.

I have heard you can add on about .15 to most of these times to get a more accurate reading. fwiw.

just did a search for some 40 times info... this came up from the NFL COMBINE!!! :

Slow second group of receivers as 4 well known pass catchers failed to break 4.8
Lee Evans had a impressive 40 time average, stopping the watches at 4.35 on most watches.
Fred Russell had a good run ran under 4.5 in the 40 and has had a terrific workout
Fastest 40 time of the first group of backs was awarded to Tatum Bell who averaged 4.4 from the two sprints.

Duron Croson did not break 4.8 on either run.
Cedric Cobbs ran a disappointing 4.73, and then elected not to run the second, pointing out that his hamstring was still hurting.
Clarence Farmer was also highly disappointing, flirting with the 4.7 mark.

Found this too:
Washington's clocking fast </MCC HEAD>

<MCC SUBHEAD>GISH grad Dusty Stamer turns in top time of 4.44 </MCC SUBHEAD>



[font=verdana, sans-serif]<MCC BYLINE1>By Mike Babcock </MCC BYLINE1>
<MCC BYLINE2>For The Independent </MCC BYLINE2>

[/font][font=verdana, sans-serif]<MCC STORY>LINCOLN -- When Fabian Washington arrived at Nebraska last summer, he was a step slow.

Or so he thought after running the 40-yard dash in an electronically timed 4.62 seconds.

He figured if he could run just a fraction of a second under 4.6 he would be fine. But 4.62?

Seeing his time was a shock that hurt his pride.

"I'm like, 'Oh, my God, I'm slow,''' he said.

Reassurances that electronic times are slower than the hand-held times to which he was accustomed in high school helped. But the freshman cornerback was determined to lower his 40.

He wanted to run a 4.55 in the Cornhuskers' post-winter conditioning testing on Wednesday afternoon. He did on the first of an allotted two sprints in the Cook Pavilion.

On the second, he ran 4.47.

"I was surprised,'' he said with a smile.

The 4.47 equaled the best time ever run on the FieldTurf installed in 1999(think about this...Nebraska...fastest time EVER!). Cornerback Willie Amos, who is coming off a knee injury that sidelined him last season, ran a 4.47 in January of 2000.

As it turned out, Washington's shared team record was short-lived. Before the testing was finished, Grand Island Senior High graduate Dusty Stamer, the last to run, covered 40 yards in 4.44 seconds. Stamer also had the best 40 in the late-January pre-testing, 4.49.


Just some food for thought.
[/font]

 

[flybuckeye]

"Never said that. Keep reading and you'll see that I said split the carries among the three. And besides, I already know what Ross can do. If Haw or Pittman is more talented, they might be better than Lydell, dinged up or not."

They might be, but I don't see Tressel benching Hall and only letting Joe block.

"Dude, Joe is a FULLBACK. We're talking TAILBACK. I hope you understand the difference. Of course Joe is going to get a carry here and there. What do you think, Joe is a feature-25 carry a game-back?"

I know the difference, it's been mentioned that Joe will sometimes be featured in a one back set, which means he won't be blocking for himself. I also said that the carries will be split, most will probably go to Ross and Pittman.

I don't know where you got the impression that Ross and Hall are these big-time backs who're eating up all the carries from the kids. Neither are very good.

I am still optimistic that Ross will have a J. Wells type senior season.

We had a huge freshman back in '02 (much bigger than Haw or Pittman) and he got hurt and dinged up quite a bit that season, didn't he?

So how do you suppose Haw and Pittman will stay fresh and productive. MoC didn't take every carry either.
Go Bucks!

 

[BuckeyeRob]

flybuckeye: "Zincfinger, I agree with you, I think Haw will sit unless something bad happens. Since Ross, Hall, and Joe are all healthy, and Pittman has already been showing he can play, I don't see Tressel splitting the carries between 5 backs."

I don't think Haw will sit at all. In fact, given our horrid production from the TB position last year, I don't see a need to redshirt Pittman or Haw. And, if Kennedy had made the grade, I wouldn't have necessarily redshirted him either.

"Since Ross, Hall, and Joe are all healthy"

So what? First off, Ross and Hall aren't star TBs at the College level. Period. I've been saying this since the ol' Bucknuts days up until now. They just ain't that good. Ross and Hall COMBINED didn't surpass Clarett's yardage total from the year before, and MoC didn't play a full slate in '02 by any means.

Secondly, Ross and Hall aren't big backs. They've shown that they can't take the pounding of the Big Ten schedule. Whether they're healthy or not now makes little difference to me. They're almost assured to get hurt during the season, and 100% certain to be dinged up to the point where their production suffers.

"I don't see Tressel splitting the carries between 5 backs."

Tress should split the carries between 3 backs: Pittman, Haw, Ross, and sit the rest of them. You've got to figure that since one is a Senior Scatback, and the other two are freshman (i.e. not physically developed), that a rotation like this can keep them all fresh and productive over the course of the year.

Wow, I dont see eye to eye with you on most of what you've said. The offensive line AS A UNIT played very, very poorly most of last year. So much at the beginning of the season kind of really set up for a bad running game last year. Not the least of which (and never gets discussed) was the loss of Ivan Douglas. He was going to be a starter. His loss really messed up the line up and didnt give the line time to come out of the gates as a solid unit.

Secondly, we had pathetically slow guards. That kills any plays that are sweeps or stretch plays. In other words, defenses could over load the line. Since Krenzel wasnt very good at the intermediate passing game the safeties could cheat up and over load the line with 8-9 guys in the box since we couldnt really run wide ( took too long for the guard to pull and seal off the OLB)

I think yoiu will be shocked at how much improvement you will see in the running game with quicker linemen.

 

[brownsbuckeyes]

kippy1040: "Have we ever had so much talent like we seem to have this year?"

Of course we have. How soon you forget. OSU had as much (if not more) talent in '95 to '98, and in '02 to '03 than this team. I'd even go as far to say that the 90's teams had a lot more talent, but had a horrible coach guiding them.

i must disagree somewhat there.
the teams you mention in the 90's were all incredably talented, and only time will tell if this team is as talented as those.
however i do believe this team has more talent than either the '02 or '03 teams, just not the experience.

 

[Sloopy45]

A lot to tackle here, lets get to it:

Killer: "Ross and Hall are healthy and look like they are ready to make big contributions. One of them is surely going to have a breakout season."

Then we disagree. I don't think Ross and Hall are good backs. You can't well water out of a rock, and I don't see a breakout season out of either. I'd be shocked if Ross had 1,000 yards at the end of the year.

BuckStocksHere: "I think these numbers are getting ridiculous. 4.21? come on."

That's just what's reported. Those times are never accurate, and the true times never come out until the NFL combine, as you mentioned. For example, Chris Gamble ran a what? A 4.7 at the combine??

flybuckeye: "They might be, but I don't see Tressel benching Hall and only letting Joe block."

Dude, Joe is going to get carries, but he's a FULLBACK. Unless he's a Larry Czonka type, you're not going to put him in the "split carries" talk. He might get (on average) 2 to 3 a game at most. The majority of what Joe is going to do is block, regardless.

"I am still optimistic that Ross will have a J. Wells type senior season."

What has Ross ever shown you that indicates that he has the potential to have a Wells-type Senior season? Other than Buckeye-colored glasses on and blind optimism, I haven't seen it at all. Unless you're talking about Ross consistently grilling Indiana. Last season, it was all set-up for Ross to have a breakout Wells type season, and he ran for 800 yards. Repeat: 800 yards as the starting tailback for Ohio State. Think about it.

"So how do you suppose Haw and Pittman will stay fresh and productive. MoC didn't take every carry either."

Are you reading my posts??? SPLIT THE BULK OF THE CARRIES!! Ross, Pittman, and Haw aren't sturdy enough to be everydown feature backs right now.

MoC didn't get every carry?? Unless you're talking about a token Ross and Hall carry, MoC got the mother-load of the carries when he was healthy. I don't know what games you were watching if you don't know this.

BuckeyeRob: "The offensive line AS A UNIT played very, very poorly most of last year."

OL play is an excuse. Nothing more. A star talent back ran for 1,200 yards the year before behind the same line. And Ivan Douglas didn't play on that line, either. If you're a good or a great back, you get your yards. Period. Walter Payton ran behind an awful Bears line in his prime, and we all know what he did.

"Secondly, we had pathetically slow guards."

They were pathetically slow when Clarett ran behind them too. They were also pathetically slow when Jonathan Wells ran behind them too. Its not the OL, its the back.

brownsbuckeyes: "however i do believe this team has more talent than either the '02 or '03 teams, just not the experience."

This remains to be seen. Remember, 14 players were drafted off the '03 team. That's the all-time record.

 

[flybuckeye]

Dude, Joe is going to get carries, but he's a FULLBACK. Unless he's a Larry Czonka type, you're not going to put him in the "split carries" talk. He might get (on average) 2 to 3 a game at most. The majority of what Joe is going to do is block, regardless.

Joe ran well in the Fiesta Bowl last year and is supposed to get more carries this year as a FULLBACK/TAILBACK.

What has Ross ever shown you that indicates that he has the potential to have a Wells-type Senior season?

He played with too muck weight last year because he thought he could run people over. He didn't. He has lost weight to play with more speed as has Joe, and if Zwick/Smith can throw better than Krenzel(I hope), that should open up the run more.

MoC didn't get every carry?? Unless you're talking about a token Ross and Hall carry, MoC got the mother-load of the carries when he was healthy. I don't know what games you were watching if you don't know this.

Ross,Hall and Krenzel had 369 token carries in 2002 compared to 221 for Clarett.

 

[Sloopy45]

flybuckeye: "Joe ran well in the Fiesta Bowl last year and is supposed to get more carries this year as a FULLBACK/TAILBACK."

Joe got carries in the Fiesta Bowl in the 2nd half because guess what?? Lydell Ross (big surprise here) got hurt. Any carries he got last year were out of necessity. Other than the 11 carries he got that game, he got a whopping 16 for the entire rest of the season. Oh, and the year before he got all of 1 carry. How many more carries do you expect in 2004? From 1 to 27 to 200? Don't think so.

Lets not forget: the team was desperately low on tailbacks all season. Guliford was switched from Safety (and possibly a redshirt) into a 3rd string TB because we had no one else. Once Hall and Ross become unavailable in the Fiesta Bowl, Joe is the only choice.

"if Zwick/Smith can throw better than Krenzel(I hope), that should open up the run more"

Dude, this is Ohio State, the Big Ten, and TresselBall. Its not Florida. You establish the run to open up the pass, not the other way around. If Zwick's going to need to fling it all around the field to get any production from the TB, we're in big trouble.

"Ross,Hall and Krenzel had 369 token carries in 2002 compared to 221 for Clarett."

You must be kidding. First off, Krenzel is not in this conversation, don't add his numbers to accentuate your point. Secondly, Clarett missed 4 games and part of the Purdue game. In the games where he was healthy (including Purdue), he carried the ball 218 times to Ross' 87 times, and Hall's 36 times.

In games where Clarett was healthy, Hall topped 10 carries once, and that was in mop up duty the first game of the season against Texas Tech (13 carries). In those same games, Ross topped 10 carries 4 times and those were mostly in mop up duty (Texas Tech, Washington State, Northwestern, and San Jose State).

Are you trying to tell me that MoC wasn't the feature back in 2002? That he split the carries with Ross and Hall?

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

sloops: Dude, this is Ohio State, the Big Ten, and TresselBall. Its not Florida. You establish the run to open up the pass, not the other way around. If Zwick's going to need to fling it all around the field to get any production from the TB, we're in big trouble

I rarely disagree with my esteemed colleague, but in this case I can at least see where flybuckeye is coming from. Krenzel was never seen as a passing threat, and there were so many times the past two seasons that teams stuffed the box with 8, 9, and sometimes 10 defenders. The first couple times that Zwick or Smith toasts the defense with a couple long TDs, the defense will be more forced to play back, thus opening up the run for us. Granted, our bread and butter will remain the ground game, but I don't care who you have in the backfield and in your OL, it's tough to run when the entire defense is within 6-8 yards of the line.

 

[gmsbears]

Both Joe and coaches have said that he would get some carries in one back sets. I wouldn't be surprised to see him get about 5-7 carries a game.

 

[AKAK]

The first couple times that Zwick or Smith toasts the defense with a couple long TDs, the defense will be more forced to play back, thus opening up the run for us.

But even in this case... Sloops is 'right' because in the 4th quarter, we're still goin gto need the back who will execute the "we're up by 10 and we're running the ball now" segment of Tresselball.

That's kind of why I see more than 2 or 3 carries for Joe... I just don't really see him carrying the rock much in the first half...

 

[LightningRod]

Joe got carries in the Fiesta Bowl in the 2nd half because guess what?? Lydell Ross (big surprise here) got hurt. Any carries he got last year were out of necessity. Other than the 11 carries he got that game, he got a whopping 16 for the entire rest of the season. Oh, and the year before he got all of 1 carry. How many more carries do you expect in 2004? From 1 to 27 to 200? Don't think so.

Joe himself tore a pec and was hurt for most of the season. IMO that injury more than anything else affected the limited number of carries he had last season.

 

[Sloopy45]

Mili: "Krenzel was never seen as a passing threat, and there were so many times the past two seasons that teams stuffed the box with 8, 9, and sometimes 10 defenders."

No question about it. But, my point is this: if Ross or Hall or whoever TB can't make the running game a threat, then teams won't have to put another defender in the box (which was the instance a lot of times last year). If that's the case, JZ or TS will have less chances to go downfield against a full compliment of pass defenders.

"Granted, our bread and butter will remain the ground game, but I don't care who you have in the backfield and in your OL, it's tough to run when the entire defense is within 6-8 yards of the line."

Again, I'm not disagreeing. But great backs get it done against those defenses. Every Defense against the Buffalo Bills in the 70's was geared to stop O.J. The Bears saw 8 to 9 man fronts every game in Payton's heyday. Even when we have our great backs (Eddie Heisman, Archie Griffin, Clarett, etc.), all the defenses are geared to stop the run, and those guys still get theirs. No matter what.

AKAK: "That's kind of why I see more than 2 or 3 carries for Joe... I just don't really see him carrying the rock much in the first half..."

To me, with few exceptions (Mike Alstott, John Riggins, etc.) the Fullback run is most effective when its a surprise and rare play. Look how many big runs Jamar Martin and Keller used to run off when the ball was snapped, the D all went towards the TB gap, and (surprise!) here comes the FB up the gut. If you run that play all the time and Joe gets the ball too much, it completely takes the effectiveness of that play away. Joe's not a good enough runner to do a lot with many carries. A guy like him is going to be most effective when he can catch a defense off balance.

 

[osugrad21]

I must get into this more than anything: an 18 year old IS an 18 year old. No matter how big the Freshman are, they're still not at their peak physically, never took the CFB hits & pounding over a long stretch, haven't been training in a OSU-style facility for a couple of years, haven't been getting the nutrition and meals that they'll get from the coaches and trainers, and have just gotten into college. They are (quote, unquote) "physically underdeveloped." If this wasn't the case, then any old 18 year old can just jump to the NFL.

Sloops, I understand exactly what you are saying, but I do disagree. The historical premonitions about 18 year olds are simply untrue these days. Today's HS kids have access to much more pre-college preparation than even 10 years ago. Better off-season programs, speed training, agility training, etc is a part of almost every high school program nowadays. What were considered college workouts 10 years ago are regular HS workouts now. On their own, many kids dabble in supplements, speed training (TG II), and attend any number of college camps. Beyond the push in training philosophies, kids these days are simply bigger, stronger, and faster. The growth is noticeable in every sport. I just can't honestly say that 18 year olds can be viewed the same way they always have been.

 

[Sloopy45]

osugrad21: "What were considered college workouts 10 years ago are regular HS workouts now."

No question about it, my man. But everything's relative. If HS workouts today equal college workouts 10 years ago, college workouts today equal pro workouts 10 years ago too.

Just as the Freshmen are more advanced today then they were, so are the Sophomores, Juniors, and Seniors. Any way you slice it, incoming freshman have a ways to go to catch up with older kids who've been in the program longer. If a freshman's been going through the proper workout and nutrition regimen for say, four years coming into college, a sophomore's been doing it for five, Juniors for six, and Seniors for seven.

Are there exceptions to the rule? Certainly. But, they are exceptions. I can't expect an Erik Haw or a Pittman to come in and be able to lag about 25 carries a game. If one of them can do it, that's great, but my point is that you can't really expect it.

 

[osugrad21]

Good points. I agree a freshman cannot be COUNTED to contribute right away, but there are certainly exceptions. Excellent discussion Sloops.