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Rafael Palmeiro suspended for 'Roids !

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Sloopy45 said:
I guess totals wise, this would be accurate. But if you go season by season, Palmeiro is much better than Murray. I mean, look at Raffy's stats in the 90's. Murray never had seasons like these:

1999 (career year): R-96, H-183, 2B-30, HR-47, RBI-148, BB-97, AVG-.324, OBP-.420, SLG-.630

Raffy had 4 seasons with 40+ Homers, 10 seasons with 35+ Homers (9 straight years), and two seasons with 140+ RBI. I mean, his power numbers are really impressive - Murray doesn't have one season that jumps out at you on paper. Palmeiro has 10 or 12 ..
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Well I think those numbers are a bit deceiving considering the era's they both played. Eddie was hitting .287 in an era where the league hit .262 while Palmeiro is hitting .289 with a league average of .270. The OPS+ shows a better comparison with Eddie at a 129 and Palmeiro at a 132 which is fairly negligible in the greater scheme of things.

Murray has a HR title and RBI title while Palmeiro has never lead his league in any of the triple crown categories. Another telling stat is that Murray lead the league in Intentional Walks 3 times and was top 10 in Intentional Walks 11 times (4th all time behind Bonds, Aaron, and Brett). Palmeiro has never lead his league in IBB and has been top 10 6 times.

Eddie also has 8 All Star game appearances to only 4 for Palmeiro.

Don't you feel the wide differences in proximity in OPS+, IBB and All Star games show that Eddie was the more dominant player during his era?
 
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cnnsi.com

8/3/05
NEW YORK (AP) -- Rafael Palmeiro's positive steroid test was for stanozolol, a powerful anabolic steroid that is not available in dietary supplements, according to a newspaper report.

The New York Times, citing a person in baseball with direct knowledge of the sport's drug-testing program, reported on its Web site Tuesday that Palmeiro tested positive for the drug known by the brand name Winstrol, most notably linked to the Olympic sprinter Ben Johnson of Canada.

The person who said that Palmeiro tested positive for stanozolol did not want to be identified because the testing policy prohibits anyone in baseball from disclosing information about test results without authorization, the Times said.

The Baltimore Orioles first baseman was suspended by Major League Baseball for 10 days on Monday after testing positive for a performance-enhancing drug. The highest profiled player to be punished so far, Palmeiro testified before Congress in March that he "never used steroids."

The test was taken some weeks after Palmeiro testified before Congress in March, meaning he is probably not at risk for perjury, the Times reported, citing a committee staff member who spoke to the newspaper on condition of anonymity because official statements are supposed to come from members of Congress.

Palmeiro didn't deny turning in a positive test, but was adamant it was an accident.

Johnson was stripped of his 100-meter gold medal in 1988 after testing positive for stanozolol.

Palmeiro was the seventh player to fall under baseball's new, tougher steroids policy; Seattle Mariners right-hander Ryan Franklin became the eighth when he was also suspended 10 days for a violation Tuesday. Baseball does not release what type of drug a player has tested positive for, and so far none of the eight have spoken openly about details of their violations.

Copyright 2005 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed
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Anyone hear the latest reports last night?

Palmeiro was found to have the most potent anabolic steroid in his system - not available in any over the counter GNC-type drug.

Also, he failed his test months ago. He appealed, and the arbitration process drug it out until it was announced a few days ago.

This guy was juicing all along, no doubt about it.
 
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So this steroid isn't something you can just accidently take as a part of a supplment. It's a pretty high-end steroid that you have to know what you're getting and where to get it apparently. Plus it's only available by injection or pill so it's definently not something you can just stumble upon on accident. Yeah, real stand up guy Rafael, just keep lying (*if this report is true from the annonymous source). I heard someone else say this is the same steroid that Canseco said he introduced to Palmeiro in his book (I wouldn't know though, I didn't read it). If so, things could get real interesting.

Again, what reason would Canseco have to lie (money? you say...), while risking getting sued (...oops there goes all that money).

And now this test was apparently taken back in May? that's a long appeal process. Nice special treatment shown there MLB!
 
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harrydangler: "Well I think those numbers are a bit deceiving considering the era's they both played."

You're right, Murray played in a much more pitcher friendly era, but that being said, 1st ballot HOF'ers put up huge seasons regardless. All through Murray's era, I can name a ton of guys who (regardless of the pitching) put up big numbers & big seasons that were way better than anything Murray put up: Don Mattingly, Robin Yount, George Brett, Ryne Sandberg, Dale Murphy, Cal Ripken, etc.

Like here's my biggest example of why Murray is NOT a HOF'er: in 1990, Murray had 13 years in the Bigs & most people thought he was finished. If he retired right then & there (with 13 years already in the Bigs), would he have made the HOF? Not a frickin' chance. He hung on & amassed those two totals (3,000 & 500) as a DH in the twilight of his career. To me, the HOF should be earned in the PRIME of your career, not when you're on the way out the door.

"The OPS+ shows a better comparison with Eddie at a 129 and Palmeiro at a 132 which is fairly negligible in the greater scheme of things."

OPS is just one stat. What about the other ones?

"Murray has a HR title and RBI title while Palmeiro has never lead his league in any of the triple crown categories."

C'mon - Murray's HR & RBI title were achieved through 99 games in the strike shortened '81 season. He had 22 homers & 78 RBI. I mean, yes, he did lead the league, but you can't take that seriously if you're using it to compare with someone else.

"Another telling stat is that Murray lead the league in Intentional Walks 3 times and was top 10 in Intentional Walks 11 times"

I don't think its so telling. Maybe Murray had no one behind him in the line-up? IBB is a stat that depends on two things: 1.) star hitter, and 2.) who is hitting behind you. Murray was definately # 1, but he didn't have # 2 most of his career in Baltimore. FYI: Ripken batted 3rd, Murray batted 4th, and Kenny Singleton batted 5th. Once Singleton was gone, they never really replaced his bat in the line-up.

"Don't you feel the wide differences in proximity in OPS+, IBB and All Star games show that Eddie was the more dominant player during his era?"

I don't feel either was a dominant player. Between these two guys, who combined have 6,000 hits & 1,060 HR and over 40 years in the Bigs, where is a single MVP?? None of these guys ever even won it by default ..
 
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I don't feel either was a dominant player. Between these two guys, who combined have 6,000 hits & 1,060 HR and over 40 years in the Bigs, where is a single MVP?? None of these guys ever even won it by default ..
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Which was really my origianl point with Raffy, then you threw Murray in.. and I don't have a problem with that... Least Eddie's got a ring. :wink2:
 
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AKAK: "I thought that was George Brett."

It was George Brett. Baseball's first 'Roid scandal.

"You got Pac Man?"
"No."
"Space Invaders?"
"Nope."
"Asteroids?"
"Nah, but my Dad does .. can't even sit on the toilet some nights .."
 
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Sloopy45 said:
Anyone hear the latest reports last night?

Palmeiro was found to have the most potent anabolic steroid in his system - not available in any over the counter GNC-type drug.

Also, he failed his test months ago. He appealed, and the arbitration process drug it out until it was announced a few days ago.

This guy was juicing all along, no doubt about it.
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yup, I heard this yesterday but it deserves to be repeated. If all of these reports are true(as they seem to be) then palmiero goes down as a one of the biggest frauds in the history of the game. As dumb as they looked, McGuire and Bonds and the like never lied to congress, I have never seen a time when a player has gone from beloved to hated so fast. Granted i was not around for the pete rose deal, or was just too young to remember.
 
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High Lonesome: "If all of these reports are true(as they seem to be) then palmiero goes down as a one of the biggest frauds in the history of the game."

I don't see (from the minute this was announced) how Palmeiro can be viewed as anything but a fraud. His numbers are very suspicious (discussed ad nauseum in this thread). He was your typical, Tony Gwynn-Wade Boggs-type punch n judy hitter in homer friendly ballparks for 6 seasons until Canseco got to Texas.

Since that point, he's been one of the premier power hitters in the game. Just that alone should tell you that Canseco wasn't lying .. and this proves it.

Baseball is a sport where the numbers (at the end of the season) don't deviate much from the averages. To find a Juicer, just look at the guys who had huge spikes in production for no apparent reason. Palmeiro went from a singles hitter to a perrenial 40 HR guy. Bonds went from a great player to a Ruthian-immortal. Bret Boone went from a skinny middle infielder to a superior HR hitter. Luis Gonzalez went from obscurity to a 50 HR guy.

These types of things don't just happen. They never happened before in the history of the game.

"Bonds and the like never lied to congress"

Bonds did indeed lie to the Grand Jury in the Balco scandal. He said that he used the cream but, "didn't know what it was."

"Granted i was not around for the pete rose deal, or was just too young to remember."

Jeez, how young are you?? That was '88-'89!!
 
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Sloopy45 said:
harrydangler: "Well I think those numbers are a bit deceiving considering the era's they both played."

You're right, Murray played in a much more pitcher friendly era, but that being said, 1st ballot HOF'ers put up huge seasons regardless. All through Murray's era, I can name a ton of guys who (regardless of the pitching) put up big numbers & big seasons that were way better than anything Murray put up: Don Mattingly, Robin Yount, George Brett, Ryne Sandberg, Dale Murphy, Cal Ripken, etc.

Like here's my biggest example of why Murray is NOT a HOF'er: in 1990, Murray had 13 years in the Bigs & most people thought he was finished. If he retired right then & there (with 13 years already in the Bigs), would he have made the HOF? Not a frickin' chance. He hung on & amassed those two totals (3,000 & 500) as a DH in the twilight of his career. To me, the HOF should be earned in the PRIME of your career, not when you're on the way out the door.

"The OPS+ shows a better comparison with Eddie at a 129 and Palmeiro at a 132 which is fairly negligible in the greater scheme of things."

OPS is just one stat. What about the other ones?

"Murray has a HR title and RBI title while Palmeiro has never lead his league in any of the triple crown categories."

C'mon - Murray's HR & RBI title were achieved through 99 games in the strike shortened '81 season. He had 22 homers & 78 RBI. I mean, yes, he did lead the league, but you can't take that seriously if you're using it to compare with someone else.

"Another telling stat is that Murray lead the league in Intentional Walks 3 times and was top 10 in Intentional Walks 11 times"

I don't think its so telling. Maybe Murray had no one behind him in the line-up? IBB is a stat that depends on two things: 1.) star hitter, and 2.) who is hitting behind you. Murray was definately # 1, but he didn't have # 2 most of his career in Baltimore. FYI: Ripken batted 3rd, Murray batted 4th, and Kenny Singleton batted 5th. Once Singleton was gone, they never really replaced his bat in the line-up.

"Don't you feel the wide differences in proximity in OPS+, IBB and All Star games show that Eddie was the more dominant player during his era?"

I don't feel either was a dominant player. Between these two guys, who combined have 6,000 hits & 1,060 HR and over 40 years in the Bigs, where is a single MVP?? None of these guys ever even won it by default ..
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Well I'm not trying to argue whether Murray is or isn't a Hall of Famer. I'll agree he's missing those huge prime years that virtually every HOFer includes on their resume. I'm just trying to point out that Murray compares to Palmeiro in the way their careers have played out in their respective eras and Palmeiro isn't much better, if at all.

There's no doubt that neither of them could be considered a Top 5 player during their run and possibly not even Top 10 depending how you look at the numbers and accomplishments.

After the announcement today about Raffy taking stanozolol, I hate to even mention him in the same sentence as Eddie or any other HOFer or border line HOFer. There's no way he "accidentally" took something that strong.
 
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Sloopy45 said:
AKAK: "I thought that was George Brett."

It was George Brett. Baseball's first 'Roid scandal.

"You got Pac Man?"
"No."
"Space Invaders?"
"Nope."
"Asteroids?"
"Nah, but my Dad does .. can't even sit on the toilet some nights .."
Click to expand...

I wonder if pine tar eases hemorroidal discomfort... I bet Brett would know... He's put that stuff everywhere else....

Even Pretty far up his "Bat handle" :sick1:
 
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harrydangler: "After the announcement today about Raffy taking stanozolol, I hate to even mention him in the same sentence as Eddie or any other HOFer or border line HOFer."

Actually, with some of the people they've let in the HOF recently, Raffy (Roids or not) is much better. But I get your point & I agree with you.

AKAK: "I wonder if pine tar eases hemorroidal discomfort... "

I was watching the Graig Nettles Yankeeography on the YES Network a few weeks ago. They explained how the Pine Tar Incident came about:

It was an obsure rule that nobody really knew about, but years before Thurman Munson was called out for having too much pine tar on his bat. Nettles was his teammate.

OT - Yesterday was the 16th Anniversary of Munson's death: August 2nd, 1979.

Earlier in '83, during a game in KC, Nettles noticed that Brett put too much pine tar on his bat. He went to Billy Martin & told him, but Billy said to wait until Brett beat them with a big hit.

Obviously, later on that season, Brett homered off of Goose Gossage in the 9th Inning to give the Royals the lead. Billy came out, told the Umpires, and the rest (as they say) is history ..

I still say Kuehn dropped the ball on that ruling. Brett should've been out, and the bottom of the 9th should never have had to be replayed. That was an anti-Steinbrenner ruling at its finest.
 
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