QB J.T. Barrett (B1G FOY, All American, Silver Football Award, 3x B1G QBOY, National Champion)

[jwinslow]

Sorry, I'm probably projecting a lot of the past rhetoric onto you. I stand by my point but it may not have been fairly applied to you particularly about um

-All of this misses the bigger point which is the "yips" that he has developed. It's his regression that has alarmed people.

Which gets back to 3yards' point. He didn't look anything like this last year.

Sure they put up yards and points but he's clicking on all cylinders and not hitching and doubting himself. Some of that is the system putting him in better situations. A lot more of it is knowing that his OL and WR are no longer likely to leave him out to drivedry so he can just focus on doing JT things.

He's never going to be a steady gunslinger but he's miles ahead of his 2016 self.

 

[jwinslow]

Let's actually look at what JT did last year. Coming off the humilation vs Clemson

BG - dominated, 349 yds 6 td 1 int
Tul - mediocre in rain, 14-22 149 yds 0 td 0 int 16 att 55 yds 2 td 3.1 ypc
OU - precise in blowout win through air and ground. Over a top-5 team with heisman finalist in their house*
Rut - Yeah, they're pretty bad. 4 td 1 int
IU - hideous as a passer, great runner 9-21 93 yds 1 td 1 int 26 att 137 yds 1 td.
UW - bad first half, rallied in second half** for tough top-10 win in one of the fiercest settings in CFB.
PSU - inconsistent without an OL, WRs or an offensive scheme.

here's your bad part of the schedule, he should dominate until UM comes calling:

NW - inconsistent, squeaks out an ugly home win - 21-32 233 yds 0 td 13 att 71 yds 0 td
Neb - trashed this broken program, 290 yds 4 td 8 att 39 yds
MD - solid day because MD was awful, 253 yds 2 td 0 int 11 att 47 yds 2 td
MSU - struggled against a trash team****, 10-22 86 yds 1 td 0 int 24 att 105 0 td
UM - we know what happened here
Clem - and how it got worse

* That performance gets wildly underrated.
** - support from WRs was awful in that game
*** - Samuel averages 35 ypc, let's never give him another handoff after that TD. Also, let's throw double digit passes to Mike Weber in the flat for a laughable 8 rec 45 yds. He definitely needs as many receptions as Samuel and 10x as many handoffs.
**** - they lost 9 games. NW hung 54 on them. Until rutgers the week prior, they had lost every game since mid september, surrendering about 30 almost every time. That includes getting housed by BYU and beaten by that awful Maryland team.


So did JT throw well (by week in 2016)?

Yes
No
Yes
Yes
No
No
No
No
Yes
Yes
No
No
No

There were only two game stretches of good passing, and that wasn't schedule specific. He was bad 4 times against bad competition. Does obliterating an easier schedule prove he can handle great defenses? No. Is this post-OU-loss play from JT a huge divergence from the 2015 & 2016 JT? Yes.

 

[GovTressel]

Sorry, I'm probably projecting a lot of the past rhetoric onto you. I stand by my point but it may not have been fairly applied to you particularly about um
Which gets back to 3yards' point. He didn't look anything like this last year.

Sure they put up yards and points but he's clicking on all cylinders and not hitching and doubting himself. Some of that is the system putting him in better situations. A lot more of it is knowing that his OL and WR are no longer likely to leave him out to drivedry so he can just focus on doing JT things.

He's never going to be a steady gunslinger but he's miles ahead of his 2016 self.

Hard to argue any of that.

 

[sparcboxbuck]

Forget skill positions. The perimeter blocking in 2015 & 16 was not close to 2014 since those guys left. Some of that is Devin taking the top off. Some of that is Evan Spencer stealing everyone's lunch money (and Michael and Jalin not being slouches).

That's finally turned around this year. I'd also point to Rashod Berry's emergence as a huge factor in the offense, and it's also helped to spell the never healthy Marcus Baugh.


OSU may not beat PSU (though the secondary is a far bigger concern than JT), but the pieces of this offense are far different than OSU 2016.


They also have one of the most dynamic tailbacks in the nation. Weber is quite good but he's not elite and certainly isn't a gamebreaker. JK transformed the rushing attack before the passing attack took off.

If I had to pin a concern on one thing, it's the bold above. There's no denying that on any given night someone may have an off game. But from a constancy standpoint, the DBs are what I worry about. I have nightmares of 50/50 balls all night long and our DBs not turning around to find the ball in the air. If they don't do that, the field will look like my 15-year old's closet... laundry all over the floor... or worse, ridiculous completed passes that are the hallmark of McMoxie's game.

 

[Jagdaddy]

-I was responding to a specific statement about tsun. And he had 113 yards passing in '15...I did say he ran well.
-Alabama's ability to win without an elite QB is a statement toward their overall dominance in skill and coaching across the board. Also, it's difficult to compare stats between players in complelty different systems.
-All of this misses the bigger point which is the "yips" that he has developed. It's his regression that has alarmed people.

Call the "yips" what they are: The "Becks". While the competition of late has been mediocre, and the pass protection mostly very good, my eye test nonetheless sees a much more confident and accurate QB who is progressing through reads much more quickly and running when pressured more decisively. Is he fully unBecked? I don't know, but he looks like he's getting there.

During the last two years, even in games against poor competition, OSU generally did not pass well and just trampled the opposition with the running game. This season, that is not the case. The following, and any error is unintentional, are JT's passing stats for 2016 minus the games against what most would agree were the good defenses (Clemson, UM, MSU, PSU, and Wisconsin) vs. the statistics for all games in 2017 so far (I'm not buying 2017 OU as a good defense notwithstanding OSU's poor showing).

Stats, in order, are, completions-attempts-yards-TDs-INTs-YPA-YPC, completion percentage-YPG

2016 vs. non-good defenses (8 games): 144-220-21-3-7.9-12.1-65.5%-218.4

2017 vs. all teams (7 games): 138-207-21-1-8.9-13.3-66.7%-262.6

So far, he's a yard per attempt better, a bit over a yard per completion better, a bit over a percentage point in completion percentage better, and, perhaps most significantly 44 yards per game better (in large part due to "tempo" and running more plays I'm sure) than against 2016's lesser teams. I think that he's improved and I also think that the play calling, tempo, and overall coherence of the offense has also improved.

Also, his stat line against PSU's whiteout last year was 28-43-245 with 1 TD and zero interceptions, despite taking six sacks (some of which can probably be blamed on him), which really isn't terrible. I doubt he'll be worse at home this year.

 

[GovTressel]

Call the "yips" what they are: The "Becks". While the competition of late has been mediocre, and the pass protection mostly very good, my eye test nonetheless sees a much more confident and accurate QB who is progressing through reads much more quickly and running when pressured more decisively. Is he fully unBecked? I don't know, but he looks like he's getting there.

During the last two years, even in games against poor competition, OSU generally did not pass well and just trampled the opposition with the running game. This season, that is not the case. The following, and any error is unintentional, are JT's passing stats for 2016 minus the games against what most would agree were the good defenses (Clemson, UM, MSU, PSU, and Wisconsin) vs. the statistics for all games in 2017 so far (I'm not buying 2017 OU as a good defense notwithstanding OSU's poor showing).

Stats, in order, are, completions-attempts-yards-TDs-INTs-YPA-YPC, completion percentage-YPG

2016 vs. non-good defenses (8 games): 144-220-21-3-7.9-12.1-65.5%-218.4

2017 vs. all teams (7 games): 138-207-21-1-8.9-13.3-66.7%-262.6

So far, he's a yard per attempt better, a bit over a yard per completion better, a bit over a percentage point in completion percentage better, and, perhaps most significantly 44 yards per game better (in large part due to "tempo" and running more plays I'm sure) than against 2016's lesser teams. I think that he's improved and I also think that the play calling, tempo, and overall coherence of the offense has also improved.

Also, his stat line against PSU's whiteout last year was 28-43-245 with 1 TD and zero interceptions, despite taking six sacks (some of which can probably be blamed on him), which really isn't terrible. I doubt he'll be worse at home this year.

I saw enough in person to not blame the playcalling. Several games had first receivers open on their timed routes and he just coupdn't make himself throw the ball--very weird to watch and why I labeled that way. OKL this year included.

 

[Jagdaddy]

Really, the question is, can JT, as OSU's QB, coached by Day and with Wilson calling plays, make good defenses pay a heavy price for loading up against the run? So long as the OL isn't an utter sieve, I think he can. But we'll see.

 

[Jagdaddy]

I saw enough in person to not blame the playcalling. Several games had first receivers open on their timed routes and he just coupdn't make himself throw the ball--very weird to watch and why I labeled that way. OKL this year included.

It might not be the play calling, but it was Beck's QB coaching, which is no longer being inflicted on JT. Is he unBecked enough to not revert? That's the million dollar question, but I'm optimistic.

 

[GovTressel]

It might not be the play calling, but it was Beck's QB coaching, which is no longer being inflicted on JT. Is he unBecked enough to not revert? That's the million dollar question, but I'm optimistic.

Not that I haven't fallen into the "blame the playcaller/coach" trap countless times, but that's a bit of a stretch. If a play gets results in the primary receiver being open, and the QB on his feet with room to throw him the ball, I'm putting it on the guy with the ball in his hands.
To say that even 7 months of practices and games removed from a coordinator a veteran QB's mistakes can still be attributed to them--come on. The one test this year was a carbon copy of MSU/tsun/Clem last year.

 

[Jagdaddy]

Not that I haven't fallen into the "blame the playcaller/coach" trap countless times, but that's a bit of a stretch. If a play gets results in the primary receiver being open, and the QB on his feet with room to throw him the ball, I'm putting it on the guy with the ball in his hands.
To say that even 7 months of practices and games removed from a coordinator a veteran QB's mistakes can still be attributed to them--come on.

I thought you were talking about last year. All QBs make mistakes and miss throws. Lately, JT's not missing as much IMO and he's closer to being on time (Other than Germaine in 1998 I don't know that any OSU QB has ever consistently thrown on time). And there is some fault on the QB coach if the QB's mechanics are screwed up. All of Beck's QB's seem to end up looking the same fairly quickly. Let me suggest this thread: http://www.shaggytexas.com/board/showthread.php/182238-Why-Don-t-Our-QB-s-THROW-the-F-ing-Ball

 

[GovTressel]

I thought you were talking about last year. All QBs make mistakes and miss throws. Lately, JT's not missing as much IMO and he's closer to being on time (Other than Germain in 1998 I don't know that any OSU QB has ever consistently thrown on time). And there is some fault on the QB coach if the QB's mechanics are screwed up. All of Beck's QB's seem to end up looking the same fairly quickly. Let me suggest this thread: http://www.shaggytexas.com/board/showthread.php/182238-Why-Don-t-Our-QB-s-THROW-the-F-ing-Ball

I think I edited my post too late--only real test this year was OKL and it looked just like last year.

When a QB has someone in their grill right off the snap or WRs are running wrong routes (often early '15) you can't blame the QB. But when the primary is open and you have that 3 second window-that's what sparked the alarm bells.

 

[Jagdaddy]

I think I edited my post too late--only real test this year was OKL and it looked just like last year.

When a QB has someone in their grill right off the snap or WRs are running wrong routes (often early '15) you can't blame the QB. But when the primary is open and you have that 3 second window-that's what sparked the alarm bells.

Anecdotally, I'm yelling "THROW the %$#!ing BALL" at the TV a lot less this year. There's always cause for concern, but I'd also attribute some of the indecisiveness against OU to a learning curve with new concepts, coaches, and to a large extent receivers. He looks quicker on his reads and throws now to me than he did against IU, and it's not like IU has a great defense.

 

[jwinslow]

Not that I haven't fallen into the "blame the playcaller/coach" trap countless times, but that's a bit of a stretch. If a play gets results in the primary receiver being open, and the QB on his feet with room to throw him the ball, I'm putting it on the guy with the ball in his hands.
To say that even 7 months of practices and games removed from a coordinator a veteran QB's mistakes can still be attributed to them--come on. The one test this year was a carbon copy of MSU/tsun/Clem last year.

The primary problem with the offense is not the questionable QB coach now in Austin. It's Urban. That Oklahoma offense looked absolutely nothing like a Kevin Wilson offense (nor did the first half vs IU), and it was wildly different than the scheme deployed in the games that followed. Herman suddenly remembered how to call plays 2.5 years into his stint at OSU. All three OCs oddly used the exact same approach and tendencies during their embarrassing losses. There's a common denominator there.

Kevin Wilson ran wildly different offenses depending on his personnel, sometimes in the same season after losing a QB to injury. He did not harass and terrify OSU on an annual basis by running the QB into a phone booth and having no constraints or unpredictability.

As for who to blame:
Is the primary read in a position to gain a first down? Under beck, that's not likely.
Is the OL likely to give him time to complete a pass downfield? Under beck/studrawa, that's not likely.
Is the WR reliable to run the right route and catch it when it gets there? In 2015 that wasn't a valid excuse. In 2016 this was a huge problem.
Is the QB confident in his reads, protection and accuracy? Under beck, that's almost never the case.
Is the QB going to deliver the ball on time and in stride? Under beck, that's not common.

MSU 2016 was hot garbage. They're being retroactively included because the results are convenient, when in reality that is a Tulsa/NW/Indiana opponent (possibly sub Indiana), all of which were bad passing outings.

Oklahoma is a top program but like 2016, they aren't a particularly elite defense.

 

[MaxBuck]

I'm in agreement with you.

I'm under agreement with him. Will that work?

 

[GovTressel]

The primary problem with the offense is not the questionable QB coach now in Austin. It's Urban. That Oklahoma offense looked absolutely nothing like a Kevin Wilson offense (nor did the first half vs IU), and it was wildly different than the scheme deployed in the games that followed. Herman suddenly remembered how to call plays 2.5 years into his stint at OSU. All three OCs oddly used the exact same approach and tendencies during their embarrassing losses. There's a common denominator there.

Kevin Wilson ran wildly different offenses depending on his personnel, sometimes in the same season after losing a QB to injury. He did not harass and terrify OSU on an annual basis by running the QB into a phone booth and having no constraints or unpredictability.

As for who to blame:
Is the primary read in a position to gain a first down? Under beck, that's not likely.
Is the OL likely to give him time to complete a pass downfield? Under beck/studrawa, that's not likely.
Is the WR reliable to run the right route and catch it when it gets there? In 2015 that wasn't a valid excuse. In 2016 this was a huge problem.
Is the QB confident in his reads, protection and accuracy? Under beck, that's almost never the case.
Is the QB going to deliver the ball on time and in stride? Under beck, that's not common.

MSU 2016 was hot garbage. They're being retroactively included because the results are convenient, when in reality that is a Tulsa/NW/Indiana opponent (possibly sub Indiana), all of which were bad passing outings.

Oklahoma is a top program but like 2016, they aren't a particularly elite defense.

It's Urban? Don't think I'll be on that train for awhile.