Proof of the Existence of God

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

probably, but then we're usually rather impatient and assume/hope things will happen sooner than they do.

That and the fact that every generation seems to think they're living in a more important time.

 

[Mac]

First, it is my belief that nothing that happens shouldn't have occurred.

Second, miracles are evidence of our lack of understanding everything at play in a situation. There is an explanation that things change so frantically that medicine has no explanation for it... it is because, despite our preference to believe so, we DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERYTHING.

Everything in this universe is completely natural. And, an all knowing all powerful God who has to continually insert himself into this system so as to keep it running seems to me to be one unworthy of worship.

I prefer my all knowing and all powerful Gods to actually know what they're doing when they have the power to do it.

So what you are saying is the human brain can't comprehend everything?

Because things which appear alike...

wait for it...

aren't EXACTLY alike.

How is it when I twist my back I have back pain sometimes, but not others.. and you might twist your back the same way and not have any pain at all...

Take a drop of water and drop it on your knuckle. Watch what happens. Now.. dry it off... do it again... didn't do EXACTLY the same thing the EXACT same way did it.

Welcome to reality.

True about the water. But drugs are designed for a specific purpose. Yes there are variables, but again, after the said person is healed after a miracle, why can't the doctors research it and put it as a cure for said thing that person previously had?

 

[Taosman]

Someday there may be scientific proof of a God.
Until then there is only faith.

If we are being "punished", it's of our own making/greed in selling tools for violence.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

So what you are saying is the human brain can't comprehend everything?

What I'm saying is what I wrote, in plain English. I said we DON'T know everything.

True about the water. But drugs are designed for a specific purpose. Yes there are variables, but again, after the said person is healed after a miracle, why can't the doctors research it and put it as a cure for said thing that person previously had?

How come when I take opiates I get pain relief and when my high school sweetheart did she went into anaphylaxic shock?

Wait.. maybe because otherwise like things.. like.. say... they human body... react differently to things. That's the answer I"m going with.

 

[Mac]

What I'm saying is what I wrote, in plain English. I said we DON'T know everything.


How come when I take opiates I get pain relief and when my high school sweetheart did she went into anaphylaxic shock?

Wait.. maybe because otherwise like things.. like.. say... they human body... react differently to things. That's the answer I"m going with.

Right so, we can't comprehend everything. Why would God create us to be able to comprehend everything? Any God you could understand completely would be too small to meet your needs completely.

 

[Brewtus]

Well, here we are talking about different gods. I would not ever pretend to be able to prove the god Mac is talking about, for example. And in case that sounds like a shot a Mac, I know virtually nothing of Bgrads version either. In my view, those ideas of God don't measure up. But.. that's just my IMO.

So, when I speak about God, the Creator God, I actually DO believe in the infinite number of things which exist as you mentioned... Multiple universes.. which, I guess are becoming something of a mathematical certainty these days among those folks who think about that sort of stuff.

For me, it really just gets back down to the answer to a question... how did we come to be here. As I've said before, I try and find corollaries in the world. I have NEVER come across a thing which was not created. Ever. And so I have a real hard time wrapping my head around the idea that the universe is here at all, if it wasn't created somehow.

Now, you can say, "Sure, but what about God ... shouldn't he have been created?" and my answer to that is, No, it's part of his very definition.

That said, I have some pause in not just saying "Well, maybe the universe (or the infinite number of them) are omnipresent by definition" I can't really prove otherwise... after all.

Still... I tend to see things as iterations of itself. Much like the old Animal House pot smoking scene... we may well be the dust under the finger nail of some larger being. And, frankly, that's sorta how I view reality... we are God.. Much the same way as some random blood cell is me... It's just not ALL of me.

I think we agree more than we disagree and appreciate your intellectual honesty. I have many unanswered questions about creation and the origin of the universe and one of my most depressing thoughts is that I will probably never have the answers to most, but that won't keep me from looking. As for your comment about never coming across a thing which was not created, what exactly do you mean? Created in a natural sense (an oak tree from an acorn, or water from hydrogen and oxygen atoms)? If so, I agree with you and if I ever did encounter something in our universe that was created from nothing, I would consider it strong evidence of some kind of supernatural event. But our understanding of "something" and "nothing" breaks down before the time of our universe. The multiverse hypothesis has a simple elegance to it but without any strong supporting evidence for one hypothesis or another I'll just claim ignorance and uncertainty at this point and wait until we learn more.

 

[Fungo Squiggly]

It's not hard to see that there is much more violence wide spread in this world than what there used to be as a whole.

Really? How many people die in the US Civil War? WWI? WWII? The Holocaust? Stalin's camps? I just don't see any basis for the conclusion that the world is a more violent place than it was 70 years ago.

Even so, let's grant you that God IS punishing America for something. How do you know it is acceptance of the "gays"? Per the Old Testament's list of no-no's, there's a whole bunch of stuff going on that shouldn't be doing. Maybe God is punishing America because we eat too much shellfish and pork?

(By the by, any god that hates bacon is no god of mine.)

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Right so, we can't comprehend everything. Why would God create us to be able to comprehend everything? Any God you could understand completely would be too small to meet your needs completely.

First, I have argued on other threads that I believe God necessarily would have to be able to know at least 1 more thing than me to be greater than me.

Second, it certainly does not follow that because we don't understand everything about medicine, God is real and acting by doing mircales

Third, is it your contention that God wants us to be as stupid as possible? It would bring a great many things I've seen and heard from various people over the years into quite a bit of focus concerning their world views,that's for sure. Including the Catholic church.. lol

Fourth, what in the wide wide world of sports does that have to do with your primary argument, that natural disasters are up...

 

[jwinslow]

Yes, reading every post in this horrible, horrible thread.

True (though some good efforts have been made today)

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Really? How many people die in the US Civil War? WWI? WWII? The Holocaust? Stalin's camps? I just don't see any basis for the conclusion that the world is a more violent place than it was 70 years ago.

Even so, let's grant you that God IS punishing America for something. How do you know it is acceptance of the "gays"? Per the Old Testament's list of no-no's, there's a whole bunch of stuff going on that shouldn't be doing. Maybe God is punishing America because we eat too much shellfish and pork?

(By the by, any god that hates bacon is no god of mine.)

I think it's because some people have sex with women who are menstruating.

And... your point about bacon is a clear winner. :)

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

True (though some good efforts have been made today)

Coincidence that it took Bucky's post about bacon before you said that? :tic: :p

 

[JBaney45]

So last week at my office they hung signs with desk numbers off the ceiling, basically a quick..probably unnecessary navigational guide type thing. I happened to have one hanging right above my head.

Today the office moving guys came and took them back down, apparently the reason being that one of them fell and hit someone.


Clearly this is a "sign" from the Heavens

 

[jwinslow]

So you think that John was speaking about events to occur in some unmeasurable time in the future? That is to say, not related to events which were occuring around him at that time?

I believe he was speaking about future events that could be traced to certain signs, but he didn't know when it would take place.

When Jesus came back, the apostles had lots of questions, including when all of this would go down, which was answered as satisfyingly as any Tressel press comment:

6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, ?Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?? 7 And He said to them, ?It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.

He also said the gospel had to be preached to all nations, which has definitely not happened, given the natives discovered in deep recesses of the jungle recently.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

I think we agree more than we disagree and appreciate your intellectual honesty. I have many unanswered questions about creation and the origin of the universe and one of my most depressing thoughts is that I will probably never have the answers to most, but that won't keep me from looking. As for your comment about never coming across a thing which was not created, what exactly do you mean? Created in a natural sense (an oak tree from an acorn, or water from hydrogen and oxygen atoms)? If so, I agree with you and if I ever did encounter something in our universe that was created from nothing, I would consider it strong evidence of some kind of supernatural event. But our understanding of "something" and "nothing" breaks down before the time of our universe. The multiverse hypothesis has a simple elegance to it but without any strong supporting evidence for one hypothesis or another I'll just claim ignorance and uncertainty at this point and wait until we learn more.

Yes, created in a natural sense.

And, bold 2,
I'm basically short handing here, but isn't that the exact answer science has given us thus far regarding the universe itself? Creation from nothing?

Frankly, multiple universes complicates things for me as that argument is concerned, but when you break it down to it's core, it's really the same thing as evaluating one universe alone (which, in terms of observational science, we are pretty much imprisoned to do, so far as I can tell).

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

I believe he was speaking about future events that could be traced to certain signs, but he didn't know when it would take place.

When Jesus came back, the apostles had lots of questions, including when all of this would go down, which was answered as satisfyingly as any Tressel press comment:
He also said the gospel had to be preached to all nations, which has definitely not happened, given the natives discovered in deep recesses of the jungle recently.

Safe to say you don't think we're in the end times?

I suppose I'm sorta setting you up to present your particular christian view against Mac's. But.. who am I (except your dominating overlord, of course :p)