Proof of the Existence of God

[Mac]

Yeah, maybe. You think John would be surprised to know that it hasn't happened yet, 2,000 years later?

Umm no. Because like I said there are signs that are given to us in the Bible that shares what the last days on Earth will be like.

 

[PlanetFrnd]

Umm no. Because like I said there are signs that are given to us in the Bible that shares what the last days on Earth will be like.

I see. Not much for biblical history reading?

 

[Brewtus]

Let me ask you this...the events that take place in Revelations about the end of the world. The ones that talk about many wars, many disasters, the west power falling to its knees, those who wish to seek harm against Israel, but cannot. Do you believe that is just a coincidence about what is told in the book of Revelations or do you think there is some kind of connection? Those things are happening now. Just curious on your thoughts.

BKB answered better than I could have and I agree with everything he posted.

You would just look in your back yard for footprints? How big is your back yard?

Your analogy just doesn't work, in that scenario there would be evidence clearly pointing one way or the other. In God's case or the case of the actual origin of the universe that evidence just isn't there.

But assuming that God interacts with the natural universe in unnatural ways (such as performing miracles), wouldn't he also leave "footprints"?

These are good questions, but I'm not sure I can answer in a way that will meet your standard for "knowing". The mystery of faith is a part of the religious experience that resonates deeply with me personally.

But I think my standard of "knowing" is really no different than anyone else's for most of what we all encounter in everyday life, except when it comes to religious matters. I'm just trying to stay consistent in my method to determine what's likely true and what is not, and I think most religious people have two separate methodologies. If you were suffering from an incurable disease and your doctors told you that you only had months to live, but also read on the internet that some stranger was selling a pill in exchange for all of your money and possessions that he was certain would cure you because of "the medical experience that resonates deeply within him personally", would you just accept his claim at face value and buy the pill or require some additional evidence? I don't deny that he strongly believes that he has the cure, but I would question whether or not what he believes is really true.

I will just say, as we discussed on a different thread, I still have no idea what constitutes proof for you Brew. If I could show you something that was stamped "Made By God" I think you'd say "OK, you win" but, I'm not likely to find such a thing. :p On the other hand, if I point to something that appears to be unnatural, you can easily retort, "Just because we don't understand what we're looking at as modern men does not mean it's unnatural" And on another, the idea that the Universe would exist as it does, and we'd find some sort of God fingerprints somewhere is patently absurd. (ie, I don't believe an all powerful/all knowing entity would create a thing, say a universe, where he'd have to ever do ANYTHING that would appear to defy the very rules he made up in the first place).

You're asking for the impossible and you know it. That's what, in my IMO, makes your question here disingenuous.

I don't need definitive proof and don't think we can know anything with 100% certainty, but if God is only an impersonal creator that doesn't interact with the natural world, only exists behind the scenes and never leaves a trace of his existence - why bother believing such a thing even exists? There are an infinite number of things that can exist with the same characteristics so why not believe in all of them? But if God is personal, listens and answers prayers, cures the sick and performs miracles, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for some kind of evidence for these claims. Hell, if he would cure just one amputee or paraplegic that would go a long way with making me reconsider my position.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Yes, I know what Revelation 18 is. Thank you for copy and pasting it. I would check out the first 17 chapters before the 18th. They go in order.

You'll know something's up when the rapture occurs

Are you seriously countering my posts with this?

Dude... I randomly chose to post a chapter which, in my view - and for the board to judge - assails your "clearly written" assertion...

and your retort is that you don't think I read 1 thru 17?

Are you serious?

Let me end your suspense. I've read the whole of the Bible.

Now, can you address my actual remarks or would you prefer to feign a working knowledge of plain English some more?

 

[jwinslow]

Yeah, maybe. You think John would be surprised to know that it hasn't happened yet, 2,000 years later?

probably, but then we're usually rather impatient and assume/hope things will happen sooner than they do.

 

[Mac]

Bkb an Brewtus, how do you guys explain things that happen, that shouldn't happen, do occur.

For example, Doctors regularly say, they have no idea how x was healed/cured/etc. Is that a coincidence that something all of the sudden changes so frantically that medicine has no explanation for why it happens?

What's your take in something like that?

 

[PlanetFrnd]

probably, but then we're usually rather impatient and assume/hope things will happen sooner than they do.

So you think that John was speaking about events to occur in some unmeasurable time in the future? That is to say, not related to events which were occuring around him at that time?

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

I don't need definitive proof and don't think we can know anything with 100% certainty, but if God is only an impersonal creator that doesn't interact with the natural world, only exists behind the scenes and never leaves a trace of his existence - why bother believing such a thing even exists? There are an infinite number of things that can exist with the same characteristics so why not believe in all of them? But if God is personal, listens and answers prayers, cures the sick and performs miracles, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for some kind of evidence for these claims. Hell, if he would cure just one amputee or paraplegic that would go a long way with making me reconsider my position.

Well, here we are talking about different gods. I would not ever pretend to be able to prove the god Mac is talking about, for example. And in case that sounds like a shot a Mac, I know virtually nothing of Bgrads version either. In my view, those ideas of God don't measure up. But.. that's just my IMO.

So, when I speak about God, the Creator God, I actually DO believe in the infinite number of things which exist as you mentioned... Multiple universes.. which, I guess are becoming something of a mathematical certainty these days among those folks who think about that sort of stuff.

For me, it really just gets back down to the answer to a question... how did we come to be here. As I've said before, I try and find corollaries in the world. I have NEVER come across a thing which was not created. Ever. And so I have a real hard time wrapping my head around the idea that the universe is here at all, if it wasn't created somehow.

Now, you can say, "Sure, but what about God ... shouldn't he have been created?" and my answer to that is, No, it's part of his very definition.

That said, I have some pause in not just saying "Well, maybe the universe (or the infinite number of them) are omnipresent by definition" I can't really prove otherwise... after all.

Still... I tend to see things as iterations of itself. Much like the old Animal House pot smoking scene... we may well be the dust under the finger nail of some larger being. And, frankly, that's sorta how I view reality... we are God.. Much the same way as some random blood cell is me... It's just not ALL of me.

 

[PlanetFrnd]

For example, Doctors regularly say, they have no idea how x was healed/cured/etc. Is that a coincidence that something all of the sudden changes so frantically that medicine has no explanation for why it happens?

Often, yes. Or maybe they just don't know the answer.

Is it coincidence that doctors learn to diagnose things only after they've seen it happen, typically more than once in order to establish a pattern of symptoms?

 

[Mac]

Often, yes. Or maybe they just don't know the answer.

Is it coincidence that doctors learn to diagnose things only after they've seen it happen, typically more than once in order to establish a pattern of symptoms?

Then why does person 1 with same symptoms/treatment as person 2 survive. But person 1 dies?

 

[Mac]

Well, here we are talking about different gods. I would not ever pretend to be able to prove the god Mac is talking about, for example. And in case that sounds like a shot a Mac, I know virtually nothing of Bgrads version either. In my view, those ideas of God don't measure up. But.. that's just my IMO.

So, when I speak about God, the Creator God, I actually DO believe in the infinite number of things which exist as you mentioned... Multiple universes.. which, I guess are becoming something of a mathematical certainty these days among those folks who think about that sort of stuff.

For me, it really just gets back down to the answer to a question... how did we come to be here. As I've said before, I try and find corollaries in the world. I have NEVER come across a thing which was not created. Ever. And so I have a real hard time wrapping my head around the idea that the universe is here at all, if it wasn't created somehow.

Now, you can say, "Sure, but what about God ... shouldn't he have been created?" and my answer to that is, No, it's part of his very definition.

That said, I have some pause in not just saying "Well, maybe the universe (or the infinite number of them) are omnipresent by definition" I can't really prove otherwise... after all.

Still... I tend to see things as iterations of itself. Much like the old Animal House pot smoking scene... we may well be the dust under the finger nail of some larger being. And, frankly, that's sorta how I view reality... we are God.. Much the same way as some random blood cell is me... It's just not ALL of me.

So is our human life the end all be all then? No after life?

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Bkb an Brewtus, how do you guys explain things that happen, that shouldn't happen, do occur.

For example, Doctors regularly say, they have no idea how x was healed/cured/etc. Is that a coincidence that something all of the sudden changes so frantically that medicine has no explanation for why it happens?

What's your take in something like that?

First, it is my belief that nothing that happens shouldn't have occurred.

Second, miracles are evidence of our lack of understanding everything at play in a situation. There is an explanation that things change so frantically that medicine has no explanation for it... it is because, despite our preference to believe so, we DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERYTHING.

Everything in this universe is completely natural. And, an all knowing all powerful God who has to continually insert himself into this system so as to keep it running seems to me to be one unworthy of worship.

I prefer my all knowing and all powerful Gods to actually know what they're doing when they have the power to do it.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

So is our human life the end all be all then? No after life?

I believe in planes of existence. I believe in ghosts. I believe in life. There is no such thing as death (of a soul).

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Then why does person 1 with same symptoms/treatment as person 2 survive. But person 1 dies?

Because things which appear alike...

wait for it...

aren't EXACTLY alike.

How is it when I twist my back I have back pain sometimes, but not others.. and you might twist your back the same way and not have any pain at all...

Take a drop of water and drop it on your knuckle. Watch what happens. Now.. dry it off... do it again... didn't do EXACTLY the same thing the EXACT same way did it.

Welcome to reality.

 

[JBaney45]

But assuming that God interacts with the natural universe in unnatural ways (such as performing miracles), wouldn't he also leave "footprints"?

That isn't necessarily a safe assumption, however if you believe he CREATED the universe then he also created what was "natural"

I don't need definitive proof and don't think we can know anything with 100% certainty, but if God is only an impersonal creator that doesn't interact with the natural world, only exists behind the scenes and never leaves a trace of his existence - why bother believing such a thing even exists? There are an infinite number of things that can exist with the same characteristics so why not believe in all of them? But if God is personal, listens and answers prayers, cures the sick and performs miracles, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for some kind of evidence for these claims. Hell, if he would cure just one amputee or paraplegic that would go a long way with making me reconsider my position.

Well the first reason would be the hope that one doesn't just simply cease to exist one day, that after death there is something. The hope for an after life is obviously the most practical implication. In terms of him not answering prayers, curing the sick etc. Again that would depend on how abstract you want to get here. There isn't evidence that he overrides the laws of the universe, but if he did create the universe and those laws why would he have to? If you assume he is an omniscient presence, could you not then suggest that the world he set in motion would provide the intended solutions despite the seemingly infinite # of variables that fall into place (aka destiny I suppose). I mean I don't know how important every single individual is or what exactly his end game would be, but then again I am not omniscient.