Phoenix Suns (Official Thread)

[OCBucksFan]

what's wrong with the system? it's been working just fine in the first half of these games, and it worked against SA in the regular season.

Regular season spurs aren't really the same as the post season spurs. Also, the spurs did better in the regular season, so you can take the seeding for what it's worth. Also, this series is far from over, if Phoenix can hold their home court over the next two games then we might have a very enjoyable series here.

 

[fourteenandoh]

Regular season spurs aren't really the same as the post season spurs. Also, the spurs did better in the regular season, so you can take the seeding for what it's worth. Also, this series is far from over, if Phoenix can hold their home court over the next two games then we might have a very enjoyable series here.

that's kind of my point. the spurs stepped up and the suns haven't. i am not conceding the series to the spurs by any stretch. see my post at the top of the page.

 

[starBUCKS]

that's kind of my point. the spurs stepped up and the suns haven't. i am not conceding the series to the spurs by any stretch. see my post at the top of the page.

I'm not conceding either as well, I posted in the Suns-Spurs thread what needs to happen. This is all the if/then factor. If they don't pull their heads out of their a$$es, then D'Antoni will take the fall.

 

[starBUCKS]

azcentral.com

D'Antoni on hot seat? No, but temperature rising fast


Welcome to the edge of the cliff, where your basketball team is in a spot of trouble. Chances are, so is its head coach.

And now, Mike D'Antoni is facing the most critical homestand in his roller-coaster reign as head coach.

If the Suns win these next two games at US Airways Center, they erase all the bad stuff that went down in southern Texas. They put all the pressure back on the defending NBA champion Spurs, and it could be a prelude to D'Antoni's greatest triumph. That would help his image tremendously.
But if the Suns lose one of these two games, the Spurs can close it at home in Game 5. That kind of first-round debacle could be considered enough of a tail thumping for D'Antoni to lose his job, through early termination or mutual agreement.

Technically, D'Antoni has two more years left on his contract. But there have been whispers of discontent inside the walls, mainly about his refusal to use more players. One sentence, six of his words - "We're not here to develop players" - seem to ring in damnation, almost nullifying the 232 regular-season victories D'Antoni has collected since the beginning of the 2004-05 season.

Suns General Manager Steve Kerr would say only that it's "a non-issue" and that "Mike and I are both focused on the playoffs," and that everything else will be evaluated when the season is over. But this much is certain:

Just like the current president, D'Antoni's approval rating among the general population is at an all-time low. The dissenters have grown so loud that Spurs coach Gregg Popovich rushed to D'Antoni's defense late in the season, calling the fans "ridiculous," "silly" and "ignorant." And the Game 2 loss in San Antonio seemed to be the tipping point of the whole non-bench issue.

Typically defiant, D'Antoni was ready with the one-liners on Thursday.

"To those (people on the ledge), go ahead and jump," D'Antoni cracked. "We've got 6 million people. We're fine. It was a little overcrowded anyway."

Then, turning serious, D'Antoni said he understood the panic:

"You know what? I can understand it. I'm ready to jump out, too. I'm on the ledge with them, but I'm not going. I'm going to crawl back in and we're going to play Friday and we're going to bust them and that's our mind-set. And we still don't have any doubt that we can win this series . . . "

But he knows the problems are getting thick.

For instance, the Spurs' Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker are attacking the basket at will. At this time of year, most NBA teams would respond with some very physical counterattacks at the rim. D'Antoni can't employ this strategy because his team can't absorb unnecessary fouls - because he never groomed a full bench.

D'Antoni also was unprepared for Popovich's Hack-a-Shaq strategy against Shaquille O'Neal, so much that he frowned in disdain at the Spurs coach during Game 2. In fairness, even Kerr was relatively surprised at the desperate tactic, thinking his former coach was above that kind of stuff.

Yet D'Antoni can't even match the gamesmanship. He can't purposely foul Tim Duncan and Bruce Bowen, both highly erratic from the free throw line, because his team can't afford to absorb unnecessary fouls - because he never groomed a full bench.

Maybe the blame belongs above D'Antoni, on cost-cutting personnel moves that stripped this team of its best role players (Kurt Thomas, James Jones). D'Antoni is a far better coach than most fans believe, an asset to the community, and is easily seen as potential replacement in Toronto (if Bryan Colangelo fires Sam Mitchell and asks the Suns for permission to talk with D'Antoni) or in Chicago, where his name just surfaced as potential new coach for the Bulls.

D'Antoni deserves another year regardless of what happens here, but only with the pinkie promise to use more players and develop Alando Tucker. Yet it seems like the coach's greatest trait is becoming a liability. He so affable, friendly and non-confrontational that you wonder about his authority over the group and whether he can ever put his foot down and demand a level of excellence (like Popovich often does), particularly with Amar? Stoudemire.

You wish this were all unnecessary, that D'Antoni could become just like Popovich, win a few championships and stick around for as long as he wants. But this four-year quest for a championship has been full of exhilarating highs and heartbreaking lows. During this time, the Suns have spawned a massive, captive audience, and now it wants results. Some overzealous fans went so far as to e-mail death threats to Kerr through the team's main Web site after the controversial trade for O'Neal.

Now, the temperature is hotter than ever. The Spurs have roared back in each of the first two games after making halftime adjustments, leading to a strong undercurrent among Suns fans that D'Antoni is getting badly outclassed and outfoxed by Popovich. One can only imagine the heat and the consequenceout of this mess with the Spurs.s if his team can't rise to the challenge, making a series

 

[billmac91]

I understand Marion wasn't feeling Phoenix anymore, but this still feels like a terrible trade for Phoenix regardless of what the general media thinks.

The end results of this season will clearly determine who got the better end of this deal. Shaq is a shell of his former self, but is still an upper-tier center in the NBA. He has difficulty getting up and down the court, can't make free-throws, and doesn't finish anywhere close to the way he used to. He still provides a presence inside, but gets into foul trouble almost every game because of his lack of mobility.

I just think, straight up, Shawn Marion is a better player. He's younger, and very versatile. Shaq is old, expensive, and out of shape. Can Shaq still ball? Absolutely, but how long will it take him to get into actual playing shape? Riley was critical at the beginning of the year, and as usual Shaq got injured on and off throughout the year. Even if he is mentally motivated, it is still going to take some time to get physically prepared for play-off basketball.

I for one, think Miami made a fantastic deal.

Shaq is finished and I don't see how meshes with the run and gun game of Phoenix. The only logic I can see to this is maybe the Suns think they need a big man for the playoffs.

They definately think they need a big man for the playoffs. Only problem is, they have to adjust their style every time he is in the game. You can't play typical Suns style ball for more than 3 possesions without having to sub him out.

Yes, he will help defensively and give them an inside presence, but how many minutes do they plan on giving him?? Does he start, and do they go more half court?? If they let him start and don't change offensive philosophy, does he become a MAJOR liability defensively?? With as many offensive possesions Phoenix gives up b/c of their style, how will Shaq stay out of foul trouble?? He can't stay out of foul trouble playing 30 minutes a game for Miami, a slow tempo team.

It will be interesting to see how this works.

It's kind of amusing reading some of the previous posts here. And with all due respect... how much NBA do you guys watch?

Myth 1: Shaq can't physically run with the Suns, he'll have to be subbed out "every 3 plays"?
Hmmm, in 2 games this year against the Suns Shaq went:
25/10/3 and 18/11/1 averaging 33 mins.

So, obviously he was standing hunched over holding his knees the whole game.

Myth 2: He can't play in their "run and gun" offense:

The Suns style isn't quite a "run and gun" like Golden State's. They take a Euro approach. They like to take shots within 7 seconds. Kurt Thomas and his knees were fine in this offense. We have plenty of primary shooters. I think Shaq can make it down court with in 7 seconds. He's in there mostly for his defense, rebounding and space eating, not offense. I can see him getting a lot of trailer points, put backs and dunks.

Myth 3: Shaq is out of old, slow, out of shape and hurt

O'Neal is said to be in good shape for his age (35) with his weight at 312 pounds (down from his listed 325) and his body fat at 12 percent. His hip injury is said to be so bad...that he'll probably play next week.


Myth 4: Losing Marion is huge

Shawn Marion is a solid player. He puts up stats quietly. He's an ok 3 point shooter... but, only really a third/fourth option. He caused friction with this team by demanding a trade earlier, and doesn't get along with the center piece in Amare. The Suns will not give him the money he wants, and he'd be ghost anyway after this season. Grant Hill has played better than anyone thought...and he will be our 3. Hell, we almost dealt Marion for Kirelenko, that would have been useless.


In summary, this is a team that needs to win now...not 2 years from now. Shaq still has enough fuel in his tank, as much as Grant Hill or Steve Nash. He won't be depended on to be the star, he's there for a purpose. He doesn't have to play any more than 25 mins a game, because Diaw will rotate in plenty. The old Suns style was great, but didn't get them to the finals. This is purely to match up against the Bynums, Diops, Duncans, Mings etc etc etc. He is there to rebound and defend, and not let guys like Al Jefferson abuse our interior D.This will open up Stat who is not a center, he plays well 6-10 away from the basket. In close games in the playoffs he will have to be double teamed...opening up Stat and Hill big time. Sure they will adjust their play slightly, but not that much. It's a win win deal for everyone.

Well, actually, I watch quite a bit and I am really familiar with Shaq as a player.

I won't say he can't run up and down the court but the way Phoenix moves the ball is different than say the way the Lakers did, they are pretty much constantly on a fast break. Now, I see why the Suns got shaq, and really it has little to do with his offense, they don't want teams just cutting down the middle on them, that's fine and Shaq makes a lot of sense, he's there for his defense, any offense is just gravy, but let's face it, the Suns don't really need to improve in the offensive areas.

Shaq has been injured off and on all year, he hasn't played in a month not to mention the team he's on has how many wins? Yeah, anyways, and since they won that championship how have they been? Yeah, anyways...

I don't think anyone here can say a whole lot of bad things about Shaq, but his contract is fucking horrible and he's not, nor will he ever be, what he was 6-7 years ago.

It's a gamble, a huge gamble, and the members on this forum are not alone in questioning the trade, but if it pays off and the Suns win a championship, then it will be worth it, but if he gets hurt or goes "Shaq" demanding the ball more after every game then 75% of the critics will be right in what they have said.

Definetly not meant for you OC, and if there's one person on here that knows I follow NBA big time, it's you. As far as "the critics"... how much NBA do they watch? I gamble nightly, so I watch with quite the eye for things. I watch trends and I watch every team in the leauge. This is a perfect match. Here's what some real NBA people had to say about the trade: (Arizona Republic)

How many NBA coaches and players are going to be critical of the trade??? Why would any player shit on Shaq and the Suns and say this was a terrible trade?? I guess burn some bridges and cause a whole bunch of hoopla for ESPN to run with is in these days.....

It's simple to see how well this works. If the Suns win the championship - worth it. If the Suns get bounced early, don't make championship - not worth it.

And yes I watch tons of NBA basketball. Enough to know Shaq not playing in a month means he's out of shape and will need time to adjust. I also think it's poor strategy to pick up a guy who will change their philosophy. The Suns should have gotten by the SPurs last year, and are a difficult match-up no matter who they play. With Amare continually getting better, and key role-players already in place, the Suns were legit title contenders without Shaq. Now they pick up a guy who will slow their pace down, no matter what anyone claims, and force them to play like the rest of the league.

I still don't like it, but at least we'll know who was right and who was wrong by the end of the season.

I'd say it was a major failure. Assuming Marion stays healthy in a Suns uniform, the Suns are a much better team.

Shaq doesn't fit well in Phoenix, and Phoenix should not have tried to change the philosophy of the best team in the league from the previous season.

Do people forget how badly they got screwed in 2006-07? They should have been champs if not for a poor ruling and freak play.

I think the finger should be pointed at Steve Kerr way more than Mike Dantonio. If they let Dantonio go, he will just go and be successful somewhere else, where a GM doesn't ruin his successful style.

Shots within 7 seconds of getting the ball isn't a great style with one of the slowest Centers in the game.

I'm actually disappointed....Suns went from my favorite Western Conference team to one of my least favorite with one bone-headed decesion.

 

[starBUCKS]

I'd say it was a major failure. Assuming Marion stays healthy in a Suns uniform, the Suns are a much better team.

Shaq doesn't fit well in Phoenix, and Phoenix should not have tried to change the philosophy of the best team in the league from the previous season.

Do people forget how badly they got screwed in 2006-07? They should have been champs if not for a poor ruling and freak play.

I think the finger should be pointed at Steve Kerr way more than Mike Dantonio. If they let Dantonio go, he will just go and be successful somewhere else, where a GM doesn't ruin his successful style.

Shots within 7 seconds of getting the ball isn't a great style with one of the slowest Centers in the game.

I'm actually disappointed....Suns went from my favorite Western Conference team to one of my least favorite with one bone-headed decesion.

To answer you simply...jump off the bash Shaq bandwagon.Open your eyes and use your head. Steve Nash lost this series more than anyone else, and D'Antonio falls into second place.

 

[OCBucksFan]

To answer you simply...jump off the bash Shaq bandwagon.Open your eyes and use your head. Steve Nash lost this series more than anyone else, and D'Antonio falls into second place.

Not to mention the Suns drew a horrible first round matchup, but I guess you can say they should have won more, but they weren't going to catch the Lakers, so they fell back and got the Spurs first round. That was probably the second worst matchup for them, the first being the Lakers.

Reality though, they weren't going to win it this year, and that's why they put so many eggs into that basket. There will be some changes in the off season, but that's going to happen. Now the western conference is looking at a pretty young Lakers team, a really young Hornets team, and a proven Spurs team. Dallas, Phoenix and Denver are going to have to make changes, the formula they have doesn't seem to be successful and the "window of opportunity" they had has closed.

 

[billmac91]

To answer you simply...jump off the bash Shaq bandwagon.Open your eyes and use your head. Steve Nash lost this series more than anyone else, and D'Antonio falls into second place.

Dude, it's not bashing Shaq. Shaq is what he is. An old center, better suited for a half-court game.

Did Shaq do what he was suppossed to do? Sure.

Did the Suns ruin what made them great. Yes.

They were amazing last year getting up and down the court with Amare at Center, Diaw at the PF, Marion at the 3, Bell at the 2, and Nash running the point. Barbosa was a great 6th man.

The Suns had the best team in the league in 06-07. Again, they lose the series to the Spurs on a terrible ruling, Steve Kerr comes in as GM, and decides to destroy the "competitive advantage" the Suns had.

Even an up and down team like the Warriors couldn't hang with the Suns last year. The Suns did it best, and proved they were the best team in the league.

Why change that?

I'm not pointing the finger at Shaq, I'm pointing the finger at whoever the assholes were that decided to change the best team in the league from 06-07.

Do the Suns trade Marion if they win the championship in 06-07? It's possible, but I doubt it.

 

[OCBucksFan]

Do the Suns trade Marion if they win the championship in 06-07? It's possible, but I doubt it.

You can look back all you want but the reality to the Suns was this, the Lakers made a trade to get a dominant center, the team they had met in the first round of the playoffs the last two years. The suns have always had a "Soft in the center" reputation, so they made a deal to fix that.

Best team on 06-07? I guess you could say that.

Best team in 07-08? Not so much, the Hornets, Utah, and Lakers are all younger, and were setup to make any run through the playoffs they were going to try and make very difficult.

Was in a kneejerk reaction? Sure, but the suns did need to do something to keep people out of the paint. Shaq played well tonight, Nash did not, and they were fucking horrid from the free throw line. Now, if any of those issues turn around, we're going back to Phoenix.

 

[billmac91]

You can look back all you want but the reality to the Suns was this, the Lakers made a trade to get a dominant center, the team they had met in the first round of the playoffs the last two years. The suns have always had a "Soft in the center" reputation, so they made a deal to fix that.

Best team on 06-07? I guess you could say that.

Best team in 07-08? Not so much, the Hornets, Utah, and Lakers are all younger, and were setup to make any run through the playoffs they were going to try and make very difficult.

Was in a kneejerk reaction? Sure, but the suns did need to do something to keep people out of the paint. Shaq played well tonight, Nash did not, and they were fucking horrid from the free throw line. Now, if any of those issues turn around, we're going back to Phoenix.

That's all fair OC, but why an up and dwon team decides to trade for one of the slowest centers in the league is beyond me.

I readily admit, Shaq has played well the last month. That doesn't change the fact that the Suns had to alter their play to accomadate him. The Suns were significantly worse going into this years playoffs tahn last years playoffs.

I think the Suns are much more competeive with Amare at the 5, Diaw at the 4, Marion at the 3, Bell at the 2, Bash at the point.

They're more comfortable and aggressive. The spacing is considerably better, and it opens up the game for Amare and Nash specifically.

With that one trade for Shaq, the Suns have ruined any window of winning a championship in the forseeable future.

It was an awful trade.

And one last point....If the Suns wanted a center for their line-up then trade for Gasol. Shaq just does not fir there style. It's like oil and water. AT least get a center capable of moving and not clogging up the paint.

If it's really that important to get Amare at the 4, then find a center at least suited for their style rather than Shaq.

 

[OCBucksFan]

And one last point....If the Suns wanted a center for their line-up then trade for Gasol. Shaq just does not fir there style. It's like oil and water. AT least get a center capable of moving and not clogging up the paint.

Unfortunately for the Suns, and fortunate for the Lakers, that trade was kept pretty quiet. There were no rumors, no stories about Gasol demanding a trade, so the Lakers made that happen. I think it's safe to assume that if they could have gotten Gasol, they would have.

 

[starBUCKS]

Why trade for Shaq? Leadership and rings on his fingers.

 

[crazybuckfan40]

The Suns just aren't as clutch as the Spurs...Down the stretch the Spurs make the plays, and the Suns don't...

 

[OCBucksFan]

The Suns just aren't as clutch as the Spurs...Down the stretch the Spurs make the plays, and the Suns don't...

Well, hrm... I don't really know how to respond to this other than point out one detail. See, when the Suns got Shaq I knew one thing was coming, we had Shaq as a Laker for a long time and I watched teams do the Hack-A-Shaq so many times, suddenly we go from being up by 20 to up by 6 with 4 minutes left to go in the game.

The Spurs know that tactic well, hell, in the three year run of the Lakers how often did they meet in the playoffs?

The reality of the NBA is this, you have a small window of opportunity in which to utilize your talent and win a championship. We saw it with the Kings, we saw it with the 76ers, and so many other teams in the past. What you have working this year, may work next year, it may not. Look at the 2004 season when the Lakers got Malone and Payton, that team had everything it took to win, but that window was only opened for a year and then it closed with no success.

Shit happens, the Suns will do some off season changes and probably have a couple years of downtime, we had to deal with it, but afterwards they will try another formula and keep trying til they win.

 

[billmac91]

Why trade for Shaq? Leadership and rings on his fingers.

Shaq doesn't just instantly fit on any team.

Teams Shaq would make sense for:
Cavs, Rockets, Jazz, Spurs, Heat, Celtics, Pistons, etc.

Teams not suited for Shaq:
Suns, Warriors, Hornets, Hawks, Lakers, Nuggets, etc.

A good half court, defensive minded team makes sense for Shaq.

An open court, offensive minded team doesn't fit well for Shaq.

The decesion makers should have recognized that when acquiring Shaq. That's why I stated a guy like Gasol would have made sense. He brings an inside presence on both ends without changing the philosophy on the offensive end.

Shaq brings a presensce defensively and offensively, but he changes your philosophy on the offensive end in a major way. That change hurt the Suns from the day he came on. The Suns are capable of being a good team with Shaq, but nowhere near as good as what they were at the end of 06-07.