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- Thread starter mercer_buckeye
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Moreover, had PSU not authorized FSS to act as it did vis a vis the NCAA, it is PSU which has standing to bring an action against FSS for such a breach, not anyone else. To my knowledge, PSU has not done so and does not appear inclined to do so.
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Delaware Buck
Heisman
My guess is that Freeh's NDA extended to the NCAA through PSU since afterall PSU is a member and that kind of extension would not have been out of bounds. It would have been a simple sign off which I am guessing was done by your BOT and or Dr. Erickson. I'm also a consultant and we do this all the time with clients across every spectrum of industry. There's nothing nefarious about the practice.
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Saw31
High Seas Rogue
My theory:
Nobody (PSU, NCAA, B1G) wanted to go digging further back than 1998. They wanted it over. If you go digging you find out that pedophiles don't, all of a sudden, start raping children at age 50 (duh). They usually start in their teenage years/early adulthood. So if you dig, you find out there has been 4 decades of children fallen victim to Sandusky and PSU's football program.
You also find out that a major Pennsylvania charity was established for the purpose of its founder to find victims easier. And certainly other pedophiles involved with the charity.
Then you learn just how corrupt, incompetent, cowardly, naive, pieces of shit, etc a bunch of peripheral people in PA government, law enforcement, health services, etc were and are.
And finally, facing all that, you decide this was a "too big to fail" situation with regards to PSU and everyone holds their nose and signs off on the Consent Decree to be done with it. You also decide that being the head of the NCAA or the B1G are pretty cool jobs and you have no interest in being the ones to go after PA government, law enforcement, health services, pieces of shit, etc for their failings and opening that giant can of worms.
This seems pretty obvious to me. I have no doubt that we only scratched the surface of what went on over there. Only the Feds would have the resources to dig it all up.
Nobody (PSU, NCAA, B1G) wanted to go digging further back than 1998. They wanted it over. If you go digging you find out that pedophiles don't, all of a sudden, start raping children at age 50 (duh). They usually start in their teenage years/early adulthood. So if you dig, you find out there has been 4 decades of children fallen victim to Sandusky and PSU's football program.
You also find out that a major Pennsylvania charity was established for the purpose of its founder to find victims easier. And certainly other pedophiles involved with the charity.
Then you learn just how corrupt, incompetent, cowardly, naive, pieces of shit, etc a bunch of peripheral people in PA government, law enforcement, health services, etc were and are.
And finally, facing all that, you decide this was a "too big to fail" situation with regards to PSU and everyone holds their nose and signs off on the Consent Decree to be done with it. You also decide that being the head of the NCAA or the B1G are pretty cool jobs and you have no interest in being the ones to go after PA government, law enforcement, health services, pieces of shit, etc for their failings and opening that giant can of worms.
This seems pretty obvious to me. I have no doubt that we only scratched the surface of what went on over there. Only the Feds would have the resources to dig it all up.
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409fold
All-American
To be fair, that's a carefully worded statement. Following paragraph is from your link, note the bold:
In a statement, Penn State said, "It has been public knowledge for almost three years that the University had agreed that the NCAA and the Big Ten Conference would monitor the progress of the Freeh investigation. While the NCAA may have made suggestions to the Freeh Group with respect to its investigation, the scope of the Freeh investigation was established by the Penn State Board of Trustees, as set forth in the Freeh engagement letter, not by the NCAA. The University's preliminary review of the NCAA's proposed questions suggests that there are many proposed questions that are not addressed in the final July 12, 2012 report."
(1) "monitor the progress" = transparency into approximately when is this thing going to be done. Which is a fair enough thing to agree to. "Monitor the progress", of course, does not mean "allowed to extend the scope."
(2) Note the word preliminary. This statement was made in a article that was published on 12-November-2014. How can it be a "preliminary review" in November 2014, when the discussion between the NCAA & Freeh had occurred in the first half of CY 2012?
I think it is a fair and logical conclusion to conclude that the only way this is "preliminary" in November 2014 is if Penn State University has only seen the "many proposed questions" on a date extremely close to 12-November-2014. E.g., Penn State only saw these questions when they came out in court, in November 2014.
Net result: I disagree with your opinion that the issue of "Penn State authorizing the communications" is a closed issue. I think that is a completely OPEN question.
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409fold
All-American
Of course, yep. And when we get such a "sign off" in our work, we of course file it away in case it's needed for future reference.
The Freeh/PSU letter of engagement is very boilerplate. It's also public. Under "Engagement limited to Identified Client", it specifically says "This will also confirm that unless we otherwise agree in writing, our engagement is solely limited to the Task Force established by the Pennsylvania State University Board of Trustees and the specific matter described above."
Straightforward. That "sign off" --- legally, it SHOULD exist. We've never seen it. Of course, they're not obligated to show it (if it exists, of course) to anyone.
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409fold
All-American
This is 100% true. Yes, PSU does not appear inclined to do so.
IMO, PSU should either (1) sue FSS or (2) admit they authorized the action. If I had to bet, I'd bet it's ~ 20% likely that PSU authorized the action. I don't know. I do know that doing neither (1) or (2) leaves unanswered questions.
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409fold
All-American
And what happens then is that a bunch of legislators and such look at the situation and say "well, now what? There's a big-time economic recession occurring in the Central portion of our state. Also, our state is not very well of in terms of providing higher educational opportunities to our residents. But, you know what, we are still legally entitled, via the Morrill Act, to have a Land-Grant institution in our state. Where should we establish it? We do have all these state-owned buildings and dorms and infrastructure and such in the State College area. And that area, of course, is economically suffering. It wouldn't be a bad idea to give them a boost. How about we established our state's new Land-Grant University in State College? We'll just name it Pennsylvania A&M, to get around all that legal mumbo-jumbo associated with shutting down Penn State."
The Morrill Act was instituted in the 1860s, but it extends to today: that's why Arizona & Alaska & Hawaii & any other states established in the 1900s got federal-funding for their own land-grant institutions. Unless there was legislation that specifically said "Pennsylvania is hereby forbidden to have a land-grant institution" (that legislation would have undoubtedly never stood a chance in a court of law, of course) --- another "Penn State version 2.0" would had inevitably been established. For logistic reasons, "Penn State version 2.0" would exist in the same exact geographic space as "Penn State version 1.0". No doubt you would be delighted to know that some of YOUR federal tax dollars would have gone to fund "Penn State version 2.0." :-)
Your proposed solution creates all sorts of short-term suffering, while ultimately changing nothing long-term. It's a complete non-starter and completely un-serious.
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You're missing the point. The buildings shouldn't exist any longer. And I lived in the central shithole of that state, the economic recession has been going on far longer than the current times
Guess what? As un-serious as you want it to be, if the Clery Act does end up ending your federal grant money, you'll cease being a viable member of the CIC, B1G and the AAU. Enjoy being Central Pennsylvania College for the blind and deaf. I realize that's not a big departure from the current state of things....
Too big to fail is a myth. Imagine that, another myth being perpetuated about ped State. No. Way.
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409fold
All-American
Guess what? As un-serious as you want it to be, if the Clery Act does end up ending your federal grant money, you'll cease being a viable member of the CIC, B1G and the AAU. Enjoy being Central Pennsylvania College for the blind and deaf. I realize that's not a big departure from the current state of things....
Too big to fail is a myth. Imagine that, another myth being perpetuated about ped State. No. Way.
When the federal government finally ends their Clery Act investigation, there will be a fine. It will likely be in the 6-to-perhaps-7-digits.
But it will not "end our federal grant money."
There is precedence: Eastern Michigan administrators tried to cover up that an on-campus murder that occurred in 2006. EMU's President was justifiably fired for that one. Big story, albeit one that didn't really make the news nationally. The Clery Act fines were $357,500. No loss in federal grant money.
Penn State will be in all of (1) Ohio State's athletic conference, (2) the CIC, and (3) the AAU for a LONG time to come. It will continue to do what it's done for 150+ years: providing a fairly high-quality affordable education to citizens of Pennsylvania and the United States of America, and the World as a whole.
You may not like it, but that is the future.
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I glossed over the parsing out of the language in my other post as you replied, as this really cuts to the quick. The inescapable fact is PSU, as you admit, is the only party to a contract with FSS. In this instance (and I don't know the Statute of Limitation for contract actions in Pennsylvania - in Ohio it is 8 years) PSU's silence constitutes some degree of an acknowledgement that FSS did nothing in breach of their contract. Admittedly, the "carefully worded statement" could well be so as to not foreclose future action against FSS, but as you concede, they do not seem inclined to pursue the same. Until PSU files a breach of contract action, the assumption must be that there was no breach, not some other parade of horribles.
In this respect, it must be also noted that the BoT is the entity responsible for making decisions on behalf of PSU. Now... PSU people can question their decisions and come up with any manner of conspiracy they wish. Nonetheless, the BoT acts in the best interest of the University. The failure of "cultists" to recognize this fact is .... well.. ridiculous. Which is to say, the assumption in law is that the BoT is performing it's function appropriately, failing evidence to the contrary.
And, that's the thing isn't it... evidence to the contrary... For us, out here in the public, we see things and we make up our minds about what the BoT should do. But... the plain reality is the BoT is privy to information that we, the public, are not. Their silence in this matter, to me, is not an indictment of their decision making... instead it is an informed decision on information held by them in the best interest of PSU - the UNIVERSITY, not the football team or some fucking coach.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I find that most "cultists" don't understand the difference. They see football.. really, they see a zombie icon... and they assume one that does not, even a PSU BoT member him or herself.. is nefarious. That, my friend, is they height of hero worship.
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Frankly, the "cultists" strike me as those who think they can sue the Federal Government simply because they pay taxes. This does NOT, in law, constitute standing. Now... if there is evidence that some BoT member or members are acting against the interest of the University then fine (though simply being a alumnus does not constitute appropriate standing). I've not seen it. I've seen instead wild claims aimed at preserving the legacy of a fucking football coach. A fucking football coach.
Penn State exists to educate. Not to win football games. "Cultists" have lost sight of this reality. It's quite unbecoming at best, at worst it is precisely what Freeh found regarding the "culture."
Penn State exists to educate. Not to win football games. "Cultists" have lost sight of this reality. It's quite unbecoming at best, at worst it is precisely what Freeh found regarding the "culture."
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I guess maybe I'm on a bit of a rant here.... but, addressing the elephant in the room.. When Tressel lied to the NCAA about some shit concerning the football team - which as my membership to this site attests, I love - my degree was not insulted.
I hold a degree from Ohio State. What Ohio State does on the football field is secondary. Do I love our NC last year? Yes. Do I love fall saturdays? Yes. But, I went to Ohio State to get a degree, not because they might win a National Championship in a sport. I didn't go to Ohio State because Chris Jent was a scrappy basketball player. I went for the world class education. Do I feel emotion about the results on the field? Of course. So what? It's MY university. Of course I want to see its name in lights. And sports does indeed provide that avenue. Make no mistake, however... Ohio State is not, to me, a football factory. I never played football in college. Nonetheless, I hold a degree from THE Ohio State University. 15-0 or 0-12.... Who cares? I mean... really... where is that line?
My High School won a State championship in football well after I graduated. It felt really cool. And?
Frankly, College isn't that much different. It's a matter of scale.
Penn State has lost sight of that.
Football is fun. I love it. But, if Ohio State was 0-12.. if Every OSU coach was in prison.... I would feel no shame in having my degree.
Penn State cultists, in my view, have lost sight of that.
On the other hand, perhaps the average PSU fan never went to school there. Surely there are those who's sports fandom is the only consideration.. be it OSU or PSU.... The cultists establish, to the un-interested eye, that PSU is built on football... not education.
Penn State exists to educate.
I hold a degree from Ohio State. What Ohio State does on the football field is secondary. Do I love our NC last year? Yes. Do I love fall saturdays? Yes. But, I went to Ohio State to get a degree, not because they might win a National Championship in a sport. I didn't go to Ohio State because Chris Jent was a scrappy basketball player. I went for the world class education. Do I feel emotion about the results on the field? Of course. So what? It's MY university. Of course I want to see its name in lights. And sports does indeed provide that avenue. Make no mistake, however... Ohio State is not, to me, a football factory. I never played football in college. Nonetheless, I hold a degree from THE Ohio State University. 15-0 or 0-12.... Who cares? I mean... really... where is that line?
My High School won a State championship in football well after I graduated. It felt really cool. And?
Frankly, College isn't that much different. It's a matter of scale.
Penn State has lost sight of that.
Football is fun. I love it. But, if Ohio State was 0-12.. if Every OSU coach was in prison.... I would feel no shame in having my degree.
Penn State cultists, in my view, have lost sight of that.
On the other hand, perhaps the average PSU fan never went to school there. Surely there are those who's sports fandom is the only consideration.. be it OSU or PSU.... The cultists establish, to the un-interested eye, that PSU is built on football... not education.
Penn State exists to educate.
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