Ohio State 67 Mich St. 78 (Final)

[Best Buckeye]

You're absolutely right. But I can ask him to coach the team such that it isn't outrebounded 2-to-1 by a team that is neither taller nor more athletic.

I'll agree we need better rebounding .

 

[BuckeyeMafia]

This made me sick. The rebounding was absolutely pathetic with TWO bigs on the floor. Better beat the SHIT out of scUM after this ugly loss.

Damn shame they had a huge lead and a shoe in with the tourney and gave it away.

Positives were- We still have no Lighty, and the 3 point shots were pretty good, but the shot selection was terrible (especially as it wound down) and composure was lacking. Still a young team and the future is bright, games like these will be used to build experience and in the future, more wins in games like these.

 

[LitlBuck]

I don't think any one is satisfied with a middle of the road finish in the b10. but considering the youth of this team all I look for is their growth as a team. I thought they played extremely well today for the first 15 min or so, after that they look tired on D and didn't get out on the 3 balls which is how Sparty came back.
Hopefully we won't lose people and they will come back next year because we just aren't going to improve as a team much until that happens.
No one can expect Matta to recruit a top four team year in and year out.

I really hope you meant Final Four team and not top four team in the Big 10.

I also think that you need to look at the rosters of other Big 10 teams because class wise, except maybe for MSU and perhaps Illinois,, the top tier teams in the Big 10 are not that old. You don't need to be old to rebound. These guys have played 1/2 of the season and they need to be more aggressive and tougher when it comes to defensive rebounding.

I am glad that you are happy because I am not pleased but we do have 4 winnable games coming up. Hopefully, that will get us ready for the stretch run.

You're absolutely right. But I can ask him to coach the team such that it isn't outrebounded 2-to-1 by a team that is neither taller nor more athletic.

Right on Point. You don't need to be a top recruit to be able to rebound. That is desire and positioning.

 

[fourteenandoh]

we've seen this story too many times over the past couple years. it always seems to play out the exact same way.

 

[crazybuckfan40]

You guys can blame Matta and the zone, the coaching etc. all you want...

But these kids just don't have the mental toughness...

Rebounding is about attitude and if anyone wants to tell me that Thad Matta doesn't have attitude watch him out there on the sidelines...I thought he was going to tackle Hightower today, and we have seen him rip guys up off the bench to get in there...

We really got screwed on some tacky fouls today that would cause us to not be aggressive, setting screens and the like...

But these guys lack defensive principles in general...You still have to rotate in man defense, because we don't have good onball defenders...

Can you imagine the thought of Simmons one on one with Lucas???? They spread the floor and get open looks all day...Can you imagine Mullens guarding the high post with Suton out there, and then Turner on Gray in the low post? IF Suton pulls Mullens form the basket and shoots his jumper, you still have the big away from the basket...Maybe Summers doesn't get all the open looks he had today, but they go to someone...The zone is covering up some of our defencies...So it is a pick your poison type of thing...

We are in position to rebound we are just not strong enough...We let guys rip it from us, knock it away, beat us to ball, etc...

But honestly the problem is not defense with this team...

It is offense...Let me name some things I see...

Turner off the dribble, they collapse on him every time it is either behind the back or spin dribble...Every team knows this after watching 10 minutes of film...Yeah he is good enough to get away with it at times...But you know what, when they are collapsing, someone is wide open every time...

Mullens/Lauderdale with the ball in the post...Kick it back out and repost...maybe swing it around the arc and get it back on the other side after they have pinned their guy, and still get strong with the post ups...

How about crashing the boards...setting good screens, not moving screens, but actually getting in front of the man, and also the guys runnings off the screen actually running off of it...

Penetrate the lane...Simmons showed a couple times he could do it today...Not force it, but get a pump fake and dribble, then draw another guy and kick...

How bout a legit pick n roll...Not one where a guy goes off the screen half ass, but one where they attack the rim, then allow the picker to pin the smaller guy...

We all know that Diebler, Buford, Simmons can knock down the J, so guys are up in their face, so one dribble and go around them...

We are still a good team, with lots and lots of room to improve...And we played a team that has a legit shot at the final four...They have size, depth, shooting ability, 4 legit scorers (Lucas, Morgan, Summers, Allen), and 2 Pg that can handle the ball and break down a defense in Lucas, and walton, to go along with toughness, and a great coach...

We need to continue to learn from these games, not take them too hard...

Lighty finds out on Thrusday if he will be back lets pray for good news...

Michigan on Wednesday should be a game that will be hard fought, but I would like to see us improve on many things and pull out a win...

 

[Jaxbuck]

But these kids just don't have the mental toughness...

This is the biggest issue as I see it. That leads me to a bigger question I have.

Its great to recruit fantastic talent but how do we overcome the devestating effects on team maturity/mental toughness that this constant turnover from the "one and done" kids creates? Its only been 3 years of watching it play out and it feels like a decade to me. When do we get some stability?

Next year will be the SOS. Watching another young team make mistake after mistake, get out rebounded, have mental lapses that blow leads or fail to put a team away when the opportunity arises, sitting in one basic defense at all times, innefective offense, the list is well known.

Interested to hear some thoughts on this because like I said, I'm tired of a complete rebuild every year, its not working all that well.

 

[crazybuckfan40]

This is the biggest issue as I see it. That leads me to a bigger question I have.

Its great to recruit fantastic talent but how do we overcome the devestating effects on team maturity/mental toughness that this constant turnover from the "one and done" kids creates? Its only been 3 years of watching it play out and it feels like a decade to me. When do we get some stability?

The problem is there have been some kids that have not bought into what was going on...That is not our problem, but we need to do better background...

Crater comes to mind...He went to Brewster prep to prepare himself for college life...Looked like he really had his head screwed on straight...Now we are are screwed at the PG position again...

Koufous...Matta tried to teach him things, to be tougher, etc...They are the same things that helped him in terms of being more ready for hte NBA then he would of if he would of played like he wanted to, and are the same things that Jerry sloan said he needed to work on in the NBA...

For whatever reason the turnover seems to be to the lack of guys buying into Matta...Why I don't know...there was the talk just the other day that Turner thought about leaving in the middle of last season...There have been mutliple transfers, and guys leaving early...

But next year, depending on how many guys stay we could have a very experieinced team...Lets say that Mullens is the only one that leaves...That is about the best thing to hope for at this point...

We are looking at 4 seniors, 3 juniors, and 3 sophs...So things are on the up swing in terms of guys staying, and making it later in their careers...I would be fine with maybe trying to bring in a couple more guys, that maybe are undersized 2g's, undersized 4's, 5's that can ball, but aren't quite the NBA type talent...But I don't think you pass on guys like Mullens, KK, Cook, Conley, Oden, just because they might not stick around for a year...It is the infusion of the best of both worlds that can really put teams in the upper echelon of college bball...Look at MSU with Walton, Suton, and then guys like Allen, Summers...Little undersized on the wing, but can score the ball, and play ball at a high level...

Next year will be the SOS. Watching another young team make mistake after mistake, get out rebounded, have mental lapses that blow leads or fail to put a team away when the opportunity arises, sitting in one basic defense at all times, innefective offense, the list is well known.

This really comes from the lack of a 4 and a pg...areas where Matta has been spurned...Maybe to his own fault, but what if Morgan, Roe, Babbit, (one of them are on this team now...He pushed for all of them...Or if KK stays another year...we solve our problems at the 4 position...)

Then what if Conley doesn't surprise everyone...I know we have been down this path a million times, but how many guys go from thinking they are going to be a 3 year player for sure, to a #3 draft pick? And up until right after the tourney, he was coming back...

Maybe we should of went after Holloway harder last year, but why, when Crater seemed to be just what we wanted and needed...To go along with Simmons...

Now the PG position is in limbo and we can't find anyone that can really create off the dribble...

Interested to hear some thoughts on this because like I said, I'm tired of a complete rebuild every year, its not working all that well.

I am really hoping that things will start to stabalize themself here soon, hopefully we only lose one guy this year, then in 2010, while we will probably rebuild some, we will have lots of talent, and hope that there is either a rule in place or guys dont leave early...

 

[DaytonBuck]

I don't even know what to say about this one. We got killed on the offensive end of the glass and it seemed like around the 50 point mark our defense just fell apart. I think there's something with the mental toughness mark but I wouldn't underestimate our lack of a bench today hurting us too. I think Turner and Buford wore down towards the end of the second half.

 

[OHSportsFan]

I don't know if you were addressing my post or not and I'm not sure where you split my post. If you are satisfied with fifth-place in the Big 10 then we are okay and I never said where we would finish but I would agree with that. However, we need to get better if we are going to win any games in the tournament. Getting better means getting tougher and rebounding.

Sorry, I originally forgot the quote. I was commenting on buckeyemania's points. Your post before mine was spot-on. :)

 

[jimotis4heisman]

You guys can blame Matta and the zone, the coaching etc. all you want...

ultimately it is his team, so it does go back to thad.

But these kids just don't have the mental toughness...

earlier in the year i broght up the hitchionary, well be back to this later...

Rebounding is about attitude and if anyone wants to tell me that Thad Matta doesn't have attitude watch him out there on the sidelines...I thought he was going to tackle Hightower today, and we have seen him rip guys up off the bench to get in there...

im a firm believer that to rebound you need three things, postioning, desire and effort. postioning is similar to boxing out, or the first part of it.

We really got screwed on some tacky fouls today that would cause us to not be aggressive, setting screens and the like...

dallas was setting moving screens all day... that being said sure some fouls didnt go our way. but we played soft and let the game be dictated to us. thats how it goes. you know izzos teams will bang and beat you, you have to respond by playing smart basketball, not committing dumb fouls, we had more than one.

But these guys lack defensive principles in general...You still have to rotate in man defense, because we don't have good onball defenders...

effort?

Can you imagine the thought of Simmons one on one with Lucas???? yeah i saw lucs on simmones/hill in the second half... ouch. They spread the floor and get open looks all day...Can you imagine Mullens guarding the high post with Suton out there, and then Turner on Gray in the low post? IF Suton pulls Mullens form the basket and shoots his jumper, you still have the big away from the basket...Maybe Summers doesn't get all the open looks he had today, but they go to someone... kids at 41% 3pt shooter and he had open looks all day, hes an 8pt player who dropped 20something before getting hurt...The zone is covering up some of our defencies...So it is a pick your poison type of thing...

We are in position to rebound we are just not strong enough...We let guys rip it from us, knock it away, beat us to ball, etc...

mullens is still bringing the ball down. buford fades in and out, some of the guys chase the ball, some stand around...

But honestly the problem is not defense with this team...

failure to score more points than the other team?

It is offense...Let me name some things I see...

Turner off the dribble, they collapse on him every time it is either behind the back or spin dribble...Every team knows this after watching 10 minutes of film...Yeah he is good enough to get away with it at times...But you know what, when they are collapsing, someone is wide open every time...

10 mins? how about his first three touches... i hate to say it but ballhog. learn to pass, and play as a team.

Mullens/Lauderdale with the ball in the post...Kick it back out and repost... we saw it twice with diebler, pretty thing. once an entry, kick out, repin. the other entry, double down, kick out, threeball money.maybe swing it around the arc and get it back on the other side dont get simmons started on swinging the ball, you have to run your offense. he loeves to swing it fast before the play has deceloped.after they have pinned their guy, and still get strong with the post ups...the entry pass has to come sooner. and wtf with waist high chest passes into the paint/as entry pass?

How about crashing the boards...setting good screens, not moving screens, but actually getting in front of the man, and also the guys runnings off the screen actually running off of it...

positioning and boxing out.or the guy setting it squaring his body...

or a block to block screen with the two bigs?

Penetrate the lane...Simmons showed a couple times he could do it today...Not force it, but get a pump fake and dribble, then draw another guy and kick...

How bout a legit pick n roll...Not one where a guy goes off the screen half ass, but one where they attack the rim, then allow the picker to pin the smaller guy...

squaring up, playing off the screen. but no one can penetrate and no one wants to dish off the screen, its been there a few times. heck guys are getting a good drop step off of the screen...

We all know that Diebler, Buford, Simmons can knock down the J, so guys are up in their face, so one dribble and go around them...

We are still a good team, with lots and lots of room to improve...And we played a team that has a legit shot at the final four...They have size, depth, shooting ability, 4 legit scorers (Lucas, Morgan, Summers, Allen), and 2 Pg that can handle the ball and break down a defense in Lucas, and walton, to go along with toughness, and a great coach...

thats not the seventh best team in the country. that is a tough out though, a team capable of an elite 8.

We need to continue to learn from these games, not take them too hard...

and rebound and get back on defense.

Lighty finds out on Thrusday if he will be back lets pray for good news...

Michigan on Wednesday should be a game that will be hard fought, but I would like to see us improve on many things and pull out a win...

HITCHIONARY

I mentioned this earlier in the year about this team....

http://www.buckeyeplanet.com/forum/other-osu-professional-sports/610499-hitchionary.html

Compete: It is not on the list of the 500 most-used words in the English language, but it is in Hitchcock's top two, ranking only behind "the." According to the Hitchcock ethos, to compete is the greatest virtue. A fourth-line winger who competes is held in great esteem, but a sublimely skilled scorer is nothing if he is not "engaged." And a player who takes a bad penalty is not lame-brained, he lacks "competitive composure."

cant say i see this. certainly not every night, not every trip down the floor.

Dig in: When a whole team is competing, it is dug in. When the fans are behind the team, and engaged, the fans are dug in. If you don't dig in, things get "loose." You don't want things to get loose.

nope. not of late.

Heavy: This does not refer to Grant Fuhr's training-camp weigh-in. Heavy is good. A heavy player is one who has a notably positive impact on a game. A heavy player is a one who draws notice. A Gordie Howe hat trick -- goal, assist, fight -- is intrinsically heavy.

who plays a heavy game? the guards are getting bumped out to 5 gfeet from the timeline to start the offense, outrebounded 2-1, nope.

Light: A light player is not competitively engaged and, by extension, lacks competitive composure. Recently, "light" has been replaced in the Hitchexicon with the word "dozy." (To grasp the heaviness of "light" and "dozy," see "weighty" below.)

i hate to say light, but dozy. sure that one fits...

Leadership: The intricacies of "leadership and followship" are at the heart of Hitchcock's professional quest. It is why he studies the Civil War. Why do soldiers charge over a wall to face a fusillade they know is coming? Who and what compels them? On the ultimate Hitchcock team, there are a few lieutenants in the locker room who can lead a company off the bench and into the heat of heavy competition. The rank and file will follow, and engage, out of duty to their brethren -- even if they hate the general.

never like to call out the leaders, wait who are the leaders right now?

Rich: When skill and competition are meted out in equal amounts, the game is "rich" -- sometimes "too rich" for one player or another.

skill and competition in equal amounts? well yeah the second half looked to rich for the team, so eh maybe...

Reckless: Hitchcock helped ruin free-flowing offense with the defensive schemes he implemented in the mid-1990s. Other coaches followed suit and made the neutral zone a heavy no-man's land. In part to salvage his legacy, Hitchcock had to come up with an offensive countermeasure -- and like all of his great ideas, the countermeasure is more psychological than real. How do you score in today's NHL? You have to be reckless. Hitchcock uses Alexander Ovechkin as a classic example. Ovechkin will risk decapitation to get to the net. He will dance on the fine line of competitive composure. His copious skill is almost secondary.

id be happy with a sustained half effort...nope.

Skate: On the bench, this is Hitchcock's clarion call after every turnover (outside some other, heavier words).

replace with run. aka getting back on defense after a mistake, a made basket, a turnover. every bad play should be countered with even more effort to stop the snowball. NOPE.

Snake: As in, "cut off the head of the snake." To beat the Penguins, for example, you have to cut off the head of the snake, Sidney Crosby, the most reckless player on their team.

well morgan was held in check. but thats like keeping sid off the scoring sheet and giving malking a hat trick and staal 2 gs and a 4 pt night...

Weighty: The well-dug-in player who competes for his teammates, who is heavy, who leads or follows in the direction pointed by the coach, who is reckless enough to revel in a rich game, well, he is part of a many-headed snake and deserves to be called weighty.

the ultimate compliment. have we seen it? maybe with regularity? nope. weighty players by their defintion bring that every night, every minute with no lapses. not for stretches in games or seasons. being weighty isnt about scoring every night, its about competing with reckless abandon every minute of every game, playing with competitive composure, digging in, providing leadership, doing the little things in a rich game to be a part of the polycephalic snake.

 

[MaxBuck]

The things you are talking about, jo4, are the kinds of things one almost always saw in the O'brien era - lots of effort, heady and unselfish play. We really haven't seen them under Matta.

The Thad 5 team was unquestionably a joy to watch, but I wonder how effective they'd have been had the best 3 of them not played together for so many years in AAU. And we still had the underappreciated Jamar Butler aboard to bring his own fire and tenacity.

I know I've ticked off some of the mods here by saying that there are a lot of things I miss about O'Brien and his teams. On balance, I much preferred watching his teams to those of Matta, and attendance figures at the Schott seem to indicate I'm not alone. Until we see a higher level of effort, this is likely to continue.

(And lest I am misunderstood - I'm in no way calling for Matta to be dismissed or anything of the sort. I just wish the toughness of the O'Brien teams could somehow be injected into our current squad.)

 

[mooktarr]

It pains me to watch us lose a game like this, but it's still a young team learning to play college ball. And is it wasn't bad enough at the start of the season we lose lighty after several games so the team has to start over, then we lose Crater so we start over again.

It's just going to take time to develop that toughness.

 

[DaytonBuck]

I think much of what's been said is valid but if Turner, Diebler and Buford are playing the kind of minutes they are against a physical team like MSU you're going to start to lose your legs in the second half. This shizzle isn't ps3.

 

[mooktarr]

I think much of what's been said is valid but if Turner, Diebler and Buford are playing the kind of minutes they are against a physical team like MSU you're going to start to lose your legs in the second half. This shizzle isn't ps3.

The old freshman wall syndrome

 

[LitlBuck]

It pains me to watch us lose a game like this, but it's still a young team learning to play college ball. And is it wasn't bad enough at the start of the season we lose lighty after several games so the team has to start over, then we lose Crater so we start over again.

It's just going to take time to develop that toughness.

We seem to be saying this quite a bit. Not only this year but last. We probably even said it a few times the season before that. Just very frustrating.:(