OFFICIAL: Biblical/Theology Discussion thread

[muffler dragon]

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/08/10-things-the-belief-blog-learned-in-its-first-year/

#2 Screams "Jake!"

In case you were wondering about all the balloons and cake: CNN?s Belief Blog has just marked its first birthday.
After publishing 1,840 posts and sifting through 452,603 comments (OK, we may have missed one or two) the Belief Blog feels older than its 12 months would suggest. But it also feels wiser, having followed the faith angles of big news stories, commissioned lots of commentary and, yes, paid attention to all those reader comments for a solid year.
10 things we've learned:
1. Every big news story has a faith angle. Even the ordeal of 33 Chilean miners trapped underground for more than two months. Even the attempted assassination of Arizona congresswoman Gabby Giffords. Even March Madness. Even ? well, you get the point.

2. Atheists are the most fervent commenters on matters religious. This became apparent immediately after the Belief Blog's first official post last May, which quickly drew such comments as:

acerider
Can we have a fairy tale blog too?
Sunil
This is nothing but America moving away from its wondrous spirit of Apollo 11 into a mindset of the perpetually intellectually challenged.
I think there was some news today about scientists having created the first artificial cell. That should have been a HUGE story. And yet, what do we get? A faith blog. Pathetic.
Rachel
This blog is terrifying. It's amazing how much power the radical religious right is amassing in our country right now. If I can't have some legislation, can I at least have some news that does not cater to zealots?
​

Those early comments presaged an avalanche of alternately humorous and outraged atheist responses on virtually everything the Belief Blog publishes. They're more evidence that atheists are coming out of the closet to trumpet their disbelief, argue with the faithful and evangelize their godlessness. (It's worth noting that the Belief Blog does plenty of atheism stories.)
3. People are still intensely curious about the Bible, its meaning and its origins.
It's an ancient tome, but more than any other book in the Western tradition (with the Quran being the lone exception), the Bible still fascinates us. And it still feeds our most heated debates. In February, a guest post here arguing that the Bible is more ambiguous on homosexuality than traditionally thought elicited more than 4,000 comments. A response post insisting that the Bible clearly condemns homosexuality brought in an equal number of comments - and was the most popular story on CNN.com on the day it was published.
Other Belief Blog pieces about biblical scholarship - including a recent offering about biblical misquotations ? have also caught fire. More of us may be reading it on iPhones these days, but the Good Book still matters a lot more than the popular culture lets on.
4. Most Americans are religiously illiterate. Despite the appetite for stories and commentary about the Bible, most Americans know little about it. A huge Pew survey released in September found that most Americans scored 50 percent or less on a quiz measuring knowledge of the Bible, world religions and what the Constitution says about religion in public life. Ironically, atheists and agnostics scored best. How did you do on the quiz?
5. It's impossible to understand much of the news without knowing something about religion. Why did the Egyptian revolution happen on a Friday? Why was Osama bin Laden's body buried so quickly after he was killed? Why did Afghan rioters kill seven United Nations workers in April? You simply can't answer those questions without bringing in religion.
6. Regardless of where they fit on the spectrum, people want others to understand what they believe. That goes for pagans, fundamentalist Mormons, Native Americans, atheists ? everyone.
7. Americans still have an uneasy relationship with Islam. Nearly 10 years after the September 11 attacks provoked many Americans to pay attention to Islam for the first time, much of the country is still somewhat uncomfortable about the religion, which counts 1.5 billion followers worldwide.
The biggest domestic religion story in the Belief Blog's young life was probably last year's opposition to a proposed Islamic Center and mosque near New York's ground zero. And with the 10-year anniversary of the 9/11 attacks approaching, domestic tensions around Islam may flare again. The Arab Spring, meanwhile is raising weighty questions about Islam's role in post-autocratic regimes, guaranteeing the religion - and its relationship with the U.S. ? will be one of the world's big stories for years to come.
8. God may not prevent natural disasters, but religion is always a big part of the response. We see it play out every time Mother Nature delivers a punishing blow, from March's Japan earthquake and tsunami to the recent tornado that flattened much of Joplin, Missouri.
9. Apocalyptic movements come and go. The May 21st doomsdayers drew loads of interest, largely thanks to a massive ad campaign, but they're hardly original.
10. Most Americans don't know that President Barack Obama is a Christian. It's ironic, since church-based community organizing led him to politics and since his close relationship with a pastor almost sunk his presidential campaign, but that's what a Pew poll found last year.
Only about a third of Americans correctly identified Obama's religion, while nearly one in five said he's a Muslim. Another irony: The longer Obama's been in office, the smaller the proportion of Americans who can correctly name his faith. As the 2012 presidential race approaches, this story bears watching, since views of candidates' religion influence voting patterns.

 

[jwinslow]

May not be the best thread for this, but anyway...

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/...-can-conservatives-claim-both/?iref=obnetwork

Ayn Rand should definitely be discussed and blindly dismissing or ignoring her arguments based on ideological differences is foolish. That doesn't mean she is compatible with Judeo Christian teachings, though.

Living for one's own happiness is a natural human instinct but I have not found it to be a very rewarding one, particularly as the focus of one's life. Self sacrifice, service, grace are all much more rewarding focuses in my experience, though they do not come naturally nor easily for me.

It may be a more productive business model but there are consequences that come with that choice.

The benefits of capitalism are why her revolutionary ideas must be discussed and digested. The results of her philosophies are too diverse to put on either side of the fence.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

...

Living for one's own happiness is a natural human instinct but I have not found it to be a very rewarding one, particularly as the focus of one's life. Self sacrifice, service, grace are all much more rewarding focuses in my experience, though they do not come naturally nor easily for me.
...

Of course you have decided that self sacrifice, service and grace make you happy. So, consequently, you too are living for your own happiness.

 

[jwinslow]

I suppose, but the foundation and mentality are a lot different.

Her quotes on self sacrifice are pretty intriguing and thought provoking, even if I disagree with many of them.

 

[jwinslow]

Quotes like these really help challenge and revisit my approach and mindset about love

PLAYBOY: Where, would you say, should romantic love fit into the life of a rational person whose single driving passion is work?

RAND: It is his greatest reward. The only man capable of experiencing a profound romantic love is the man driven by passion for his work -- because love is an expression of self-esteem, of the deepest values in a man's or a woman's character. One falls in love with the person who shares these values. If a man has no clearly defined values, and no moral character, he is not able to appreciate another person. In this respect, I would like to quote from The Fountainhead, in which the hero utters a line that has often been quoted by readers: "To say 'I love you' one must know first how to say the 'I.'"

PLAYBOY: You hold that one's own happiness is the highest end, and that self-sacrifice is immoral. Does this apply to love as well as work?

RAND: To love more than to anything else. When you are in love, it means that the person you love is of great personal, selfish importance to you and to your life. If you were selfless, it would have to mean that you derive no personal pleasure or happiness from the company and the existence of the person you love, and that you are motivated only by self-sacrificial pity for that person's need of you. I don't have to point out to you that no one would be flattered by, nor would accept, a concept of that kind. Love is not self-sacrifice, but the most profound assertion of your own needs and values. It is for your own happiness that you need the person you love, and that is the greatest compliment, the greatest tribute you can pay to that person.

whereas I find this to be creative but in stark opposition to my experiences with my own humanity and those around me, in terms of being able to reliably step outside of myself, my perceptions and emotions. There is merit to some of those practices, but I find it to be naive to fully trust that ability.

PLAYBOY: What are the basic premises of Objectivism? Where does it begin?


RAND: It begins with the axiom that existence exists, which means that an objective reality exists independent of any perceiver or of the perceiver's emotions, feelings, wishes, hopes or fears. Objectivism holds that reason is man's only means of perceiving reality and his only guide to action. By reason, I mean the faculty which identifies and integrates the material provided by man's senses.

PLAYBOY: Should one ignore emotions altogether, rule them out of one's life entirely?


RAND: Of course not. One should merely keep them in their place. An emotion is an automatic response, an automatic effect of man's value premises. An effect, not a cause. There is no necessary clash, no dichotomy between man's reason and his emotions -- provided he observes their proper relationship. A rational man knows -- or makes it a point to discover -- the source of his emotions, the basic premises from which they come; if his premises are wrong, he corrects them. He never acts on emotions for which he cannot account, the meaning of which he does not understand. In appraising a situation, he knows why he reacts as he does and whether he is right. He has no inner conflicts, his mind and his emotions are integrated, his consciousness is in perfect harmony. His emotions are not his enemies, they are his means of enjoying life. But they are not his guide; the guide is his mind. This relationship cannot be reversed, however. If a man takes his emotions as the cause and his mind as their passive effect, if he is guided by his emotions and uses his mind only to rationalize or justify them somehow -- then he is acting immorally, he is condemning himself to misery, failure, defeat, and he will achieve nothing but destruction -- his own and that of others.

 

[muffler dragon]

Ayn Rand should definitely be discussed and blindly dismissing or ignoring her arguments based on ideological differences is foolish. That doesn't mean she is compatible with Judeo Christian teachings, though.

Granted, I haven't read any Rand, but what you have presented so far doesn't really scream incompatibility with my understanding of Jewish ideals. Take it FWIW.

The benefits of capitalism are why her revolutionary ideas must be discussed and digested. The results of her philosophies are too diverse to put on either side of the fence.

I'm definitely going to have to pick up Atlas Shrugged.

 

[MaxBuck]

May not be the best thread for this, but anyway...

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/...-can-conservatives-claim-both/?iref=obnetwork

Ultimately, it's very hard for people of faith on any part of the political spectrum fully to reconcile their religious beliefs and political beliefs without engaging in one or more forms of self-deception, IMO. Anti-abortionists conveniently ignore the fact that, although abortion has been practiced throughout recorded history, nowhere is there mention of the activity in the Bible, begging the question: if God so wanted us to avoid the practice, why didn't he tell us directly through His word?

Similarly, those who promote gay marriage (and gay rights more generally) conveniently ignore numerous passages in both Old and New Testaments that are pretty much incontrovertible in their proscription of homosexual practice.

Excellent and thought-provoking link, muffler. Kudos!

 

[Gatorubet]

Of course you have decided that self sacrifice, service and grace make you happy. So, consequently, you too are living for your own happiness.

Like Charlie Sheen's drugs, booze and ex-porn star goddesses. It does all work. :p

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

I suppose, but the foundation and mentality are a lot different.

Her quotes on self sacrifice are pretty intriguing and thought provoking, even if I disagree with many of them.

I refuse to engage a velociraptor in additional conversation. :p

 

[muffler dragon]

Ultimately, it's very hard for people of faith on any part of the political spectrum fully to reconcile their religious beliefs and political beliefs without engaging in one or more forms of self-deception, IMO. Anti-abortionists conveniently ignore the fact that, although abortion has been practiced throughout recorded history, nowhere is there mention of the activity in the Bible, begging the question: if God so wanted us to avoid the practice, why didn't he tell us directly through His word?

Similarly, those who promote gay marriage (and gay rights more generally) conveniently ignore numerous passages in both Old and New Testaments that are pretty much incontrovertible in their proscription of homosexual practice.

I find nothing at issue with you my pseudo-Libertarian ways.

Excellent and thought-provoking link, muffler. Kudos!

Glad you enjoyed it.

 

[SmoovP]

I find Ayn Rand tiresome and mostly ludicrous, and find her belief system incompatible with Christianity. She's also a crappy writer.

I'm a Christian and I believe that we are called to serve God and serve our fellow humans, and it is in service work that I find my greatest fulfillment.

Having said that, I am not a believer that The Bible is the singular, literal, infallible Word of God, nor do I believe that Christianity is the sole path to 'heaven'.

That statement, for many, disqualifies me as a Christian. I'm fine with that.

 

[Jake]

I find Ayn Rand tiresome and mostly ludicrous, and find her belief system incompatible with Christianity. She's also a crappy writer.

With all due respect Smoov, I place her above you in terms of logic and writing skills.

I'm a Christian and I believe that we are called to serve God and serve our fellow humans, and it is in service work that I find my greatest fulfillment.

I'll bet my paycheck today that you were raised a Christian, taught all about God and Jesus from as far back as you can remember. That's usually how it works, and it has nothing to do with the credibility of the bible (it has none) but rather simply being a product of one's environment. Odds are high if you had been born in Riyadh you'd sense every bit the same calling to serve Allah.

Having said that, I am not a believer that The Bible is the singular, literal, infallible Word of God, nor do I believe that Christianity is the sole path to 'heaven'.

So you're a Christian who rejects major tenants of Christianity.

That statement, for many, disqualifies me as a Christian. I'm fine with that.

Inventing your variation of religion is no less (or more) credible than following the flock.

 

[Jake]

The only thing funnier than this silly, stupid woman is her fat, pathetic husband sitting idly by watching her threaten their son when she has nowhere else to go.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mcOIyf9TOQ&feature=related"]Crazy Christian (catholic) Mom Steals Christmas From Son[/ame]

 

[Gatorubet]

Smoov, when Jake was a baby he was scared by his Sunday School teacher......or raped by a Priest when he was an Alter Boy ........or dumped by a hot Minister's daughter the night of the prom, only to find out she banged his eight best friends......or something, Heaven knows what!

But you'd have better luck convincing me that Georgia is the right university for my sons to attend than you would having a rational conversation with Jake about spirituality.

Just sign the affidavit that you are stupid and superstitious - and he is rational and intelligent - and you can just refer him to that document from here on in when the subject comes up and avoid a lot of repetitious discussions.*




* not that I'm not inclined to repetitious discussions, mind you :p

 

[Gatorubet]

OK Jake, that post was kind of mean, so I'll do you a favor and give you some better material than a nutty mom on youtube, but try not to post it on bp: :p

"Priests...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Correa de Serra, April 11, 1820

"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, 30 July, 1816