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OFFICIAL: Biblical/Theology Discussion thread

Do you recall if they talked about all the different considerations? Reincarnation? Resurrection? Etc?




Not so much on Reincarnation (hindu, Eastern religion teaching)
Major emphasis on Resurrection.
Can;t recall/not sure if there was discussion on other considerations.

Here is an article from Rabbi Simmons that I googled.
Don't know anything about him other than that he seems to have a large following.
Ask the Rabbi-- Afterlife


Question
What do Jews believe about the afterlife? Do we have spirits? How will we be resurrected when the messiah comes? Is there a heaven and hell? What is hell like?

Answer
The creation of man testifies to the eternal life of the soul. The Torah says, "And the Almighty formed the man of dust from the ground, and He blew into his nostrils the SOUL of life" (Genesis 2:7). On this verse, the Zohar states that "one who blows, blows from within himself," indicating that the soul is actually part of God's essence. Since God's essence is completely spiritual and non-physical, it is impossible that the soul should die. (The commentator Chizkuni says this why the verse calls it "soul of LIFE.")
That's what King Solomon meant when he wrote, "The dust will return to the ground as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:17)
For anyone who believes in a just and caring God, the existence of an afterlife makes logical sense. Could it be this world is just a playground without consequences? Did Hitler get away with killing 6,000,000 Jews? No. There is obviously a place where good people receive reward and bad people get punished. (see Maimonides' 13 Principles of Faith) . . .

So what is the afterlife exactly?
When a person dies and goes to heaven, the judgment is not arbitrary and externally imposed. Rather, the soul is shown two videotapes. The first video is called "This is Your Life!" Every decision and every thought, all the good deeds, and the embarrassing things a person did in private is all replayed without any embellishments. It's fully bared for all to see. That's why the next world is called Olam HaEmet - "the World of Truth," because there we clearly recognize our personal strengths and shortcomings, and the true purpose of life. In short, Hell is not the Devil with a pitchfork stoking the fires.
The second video depicts how a person's life "could have been..." if the right choices had been made, if the opportunities were seized, if the potential was actualized. This video - the pain of squandered potential - is much more difficult to bear. But at the same time it purifies the soul as well. The pain creates regret which removes the barriers and enables the soul to completely connect to God.
Not all souls merit Gehenom. It is for people who have done good but need to be purified. A handful of people are too evil for Gehenom, and they are punished eternally. Pharaoh is one example. . .
The existence of the afterlife is not stated explicitly in the Torah itself, because as human beings we have to focus on our task in this world. Though awareness of an eternal reward can also be an effective motivator.
For further study, see Maimonides' Foundations of the Torah, "The Way of God" by Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzatto, and the commentary of Nachmanides to Leviticus 18:29.
May the Almighty grant you blessings, success - and eternal life!
Sources:
* Zohar, Mishpatim, Exodus 1:1
* AriZal - Sha'ar Hagilgulim
With blessings from Jerusalem,

Rabbi Shraga Simmons


 
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gracelhink;1910313; said:
Not so much on Reincarnation (hindu, Eastern religion teaching)
Major emphasis on Resurrection.
Can;t recall/not sure if there was discussion on other considerations.

Here is an article from Rabbi Simmons that I googled.
Don't know anything about him other than that he seems to have a large following.
Ask the Rabbi-- Afterlife




Very interesting. I have an affinity for aish.com, but I'm not familiar with Rabbi Simmons.

I find it odd (for lack of a better word) that he attempts to dial in with a degree of certainty what happens in the afterlife. Que sera sera.
 
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gracelhink;1910248; said:
So are you saying that virtue may be its own reward?:)
:biggrin:
gracelhink;1910248; said:
I am not a TULIP Calvinist either,
I won't get into the T--Total depravity of man, unfortunately women I know believe they are exempt, total depravity tis only a man condition and no sense arguing about it.:wink2:

The teaching of Calvinism that bothers me most is the L point--limited atonement.
This collides heavily with the issue you take Gator--double predestinationism is not consistent with a loving God.
Many neoCalvinists do not accept this doctrine either for the same reason, think they call themselves 4 point Calvinists.
I also believe that the I (Irresistible grace) of the TULIP doctrines has some flaws, i.e. grace is compelling but can be resisted.
I have some doubts also about the P tenet of "perseverance" sometimes referred to as eternal security.
About the Perseverance, most Calvinists teach that Since salvation is not earned by good works, it can not be lost by bad works,
I believe, however that just as it is received by grace through faith, it may also be unreceived through loss or rejection of faith, I don't know why anyone would reject such great salvation but it is possible.

Yep. Election and Perseverance sort of render the following statements as meaningless:

Matthew 6:1-4
Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven "So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Matthew 25:41-45
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least among you, you did not do for me.'

gracelhink;1910248; said:
For Calvin the basic tenets of TULIP derived from the belief that God was sovereign, omnscient and omnipotent creator.
As He created each life because He is omniscient, would have to know their eternal destiny.
What if, however the omnipotent and omniscient sovereign creator chose to not know the eternal destiny and gave free will to his children? Instead he gave either a nonintrusive permission to accept and receive a relationship of love with their creator or to reject the same.
It is only an omnipotent and omniscient sovereign God that could limit his knowledge in such a way.
Just a thought to share at the next presbytery meeting.:wink2:

Indeed. Then one gets to the lifetime long despicable person - a pathological liar, hurtful, abusive, manipulative, un-convicted rapist, murderer who genuinely repents on his deathbed....versus the Golden Rule non-believer. The worst case scenario, using standard "fair" concepts. One is in paradise forever and one in Hell for eternity. Bummer. That is the thought that drives me to question the one way thing.

I recently gave up Christianity for Lent. We'll see how that goes. :lol:
 
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Gatorubet;1910327; said:
I recently gave up Christianity for Lent.
ir6hx1.jpg


IF YOU ONLY KNEW THE POWER OF THE DARK SIDE
 
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Gatorubet;1910327; said:
:biggrin:


Yep. Election and Perseverance sort of render the following statements as meaningless:

Matthew 6:1-4
Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven "So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Matthew 25:41-45
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least among you, you did not do for me.'



Indeed. Then one gets to the lifetime long despicable person - a pathological liar, hurtful, abusive, manipulative, un-convicted rapist, murderer who genuinely repents on his deathbed....versus the Golden Rule non-believer. The worst case scenario, using standard "fair" concepts. One is in paradise forever and one in Hell for eternity. Bummer. That is the thought that drives me to question the one way thing.

I recently gave up Christianity for Lent. We'll see how that goes. :lol:

So What did you do for Mardi Gras?

Absolutey agree with your understanding on the "reward" teachings of Christ in Matthew 5.

I think I remember you saying you don't practice criminal law but How do you think you might defend the Golden Rule non believer in judgment.

I am more like the despicable person, I know I don't deserve heaven, am absolutely dependent on the grace of God, mercy of the court!
 
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I'm one of those guys who thinks the western church may have taken in a pagan tradition or two, somewhere alone the way. I would love to have the holiday celebrated during the Jewish Passover week and not named for the Babylonia goddess of spring.
 
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stowfan;1911126; said:
I'm one of those guys who thinks the western church may have taken in a pagan tradition or two, somewhere alone the way. I would love to have the holiday celebrated during the Jewish Passover week and not named for the Babylonia goddess of spring.

yule-log.jpg


Preposterous!!!!! Now help me with this Yule log ...Christmas is coming. :p
 
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buckeyegrad;1909996; said:
This is a doctrine for many Christians that just doesn't make sense to me anymore...or maybe better stated, the whole concept of the afterlife for the Christian as being in heaven with God doesn't make sense.

For those of us who die, if our expectation should be the resurrection to new life, and the New Testament is quite clear on that being our expectation, why would we expect that our spirit, whether in the place of torment or in Abraham's bosom, to be taken to heaven? Or likewise, when I die, why would I expect my spirit to be taken immediately to heaven?

Neither Scripture nor reason can get me to the idea that when I die my spirit will go to heaven, only to have it leave heaven and return to my body in the resurrection of the dead. Not having faced the White Thrown Judgment, which I believe all Christians will have to go through unless they are part of the martyrs who are in the first resurrection, how could it be possible for me to enter into God's presence in heaven?

The alternative for me is that the spirit will rest in Sheol, whether in the paradise or the torment parts, waiting for the resurrection of the dead unto new life. As a Christian, I believe this resurrection will either be in the first with the martyrs who will reign under Jesus in the messianic kingdom and then pass into the New Jerusalem (i.e. Eden reestablished on Earth in which man dwells once again in the presence of God); or in the second, of whom will have to face the White Thrown Judgment, and then pass into the New Jerusalem.
My thought process has always been wondering whether our limited minds are mistaken to limit an afterlife existence to our finite time. Heaven after judgment day may not come for a long time for earth, but I'm not sure that we are still confined by time after death.

It seems possible that that limbo period you mentioned might not actually exist. God is outside of time and thus we could instantly reach judgment day, seemingly at the same instant as Abraham since we are trading in a finite life for an infinite one.

This is one of the many areas which are fascinating to discuss but ultimately run in circles because those questions were not answered, and I'm not sure we are mentally capable of handling it anyway.

What scripture is clear about with regards to afterlife theories is that Rob Bell is wildly off base.
 
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jwinslow;1926626; said:
My thought process has always been wondering whether our limited minds are mistaken to limit an afterlife existence to our finite time. Heaven after judgment day may not come for a long time for earth, but I'm not sure that we are still confined by time after death.

It seems possible that that limbo period you mentioned might not actually exist. God is outside of time and thus we could instantly reach judgment day, seemingly at the same instant as Abraham since we are trading in a finite life for an infinite one.

This is one of the many areas which are fascinating to discuss but ultimately run in circles because those questions were not answered, and I'm not sure we are mentally capable of handling it anyway.

What scripture is clear about with regards to afterlife theories is that Rob Bell is wildly off base.
Just wondering - anyone ever read Mark Twain's "Captain Stormfield's Visit to Heaven?"
 
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jwinslow;1926626; said:
My thought process has always been wondering whether our limited minds are mistaken to limit an afterlife existence to our finite time. Heaven after judgment day may not come for a long time for earth, but I'm not sure that we are still confined by time after death.

It seems possible that that limbo period you mentioned might not actually exist. God is outside of time and thus we could instantly reach judgment day, seemingly at the same instant as Abraham since we are trading in a finite life for an infinite one.

This is one of the many areas which are fascinating to discuss but ultimately run in circles because those questions were not answered, and I'm not sure we are mentally capable of handling it anyway.

What scripture is clear about with regards to afterlife theories is that Rob Bell is wildly off base.

With all due respect, what is also clear is that you have a vivid imagination. Not only do you have a god, you've invented the concept that time does not exist in god's world (which also has no evidence of its existence), and attempted to elevate it beyond question by suggesting our minds are incapable of comprehending it. It's all very convenient if one wants to believe the heaven story of the bible, but it has nothing to support it other than feelings, wishes, and legends.

The counter argument could be that our minds are so advanced we're capable of rationalizing things in ways other animals cannot. Is it a coincidence that humans are the only creatures who live in a world where we're willing to believe things as true - and base our lives on them - despite no evidence whatsoever to support that belief? So called "lower" animals, who lack the ability to rationalize and simply live their lives based on what their senses tell them, have no religion. Their minds are not deluded with feelings, wishes and legends, and they aren't spending this life chasing an imaginary one.
 
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May not be the best thread for this, but anyway...

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/...-can-conservatives-claim-both/?iref=obnetwork

Can a person follow Ayn Rand and Jesus?
That?s the question posed by a provocative media campaign that claims that some prominent conservative leaders cannot serve two masters: Jesus and the controversial author of "Atlas Shrugged," Ayn Rand.
The American Values Network, a group of political activists and pastors, sparked a debate when it recently released a videochallenging some conservative and Republican leaders? professed admiration for Rand, an atheist who saw selfishness as a virtue and celebrated unfettered capitalism.
Eric Sapp, AVN?s executive director, said the Republican Party cannot portray itself as a defender of Christian values and then defend the worldview of "the patron saint of selfishness" who scorned religion and compassion.
Sapp singled out Republican leaders such as Rep. Paul Ryan, R-Wisconsin, Sen. Rand Paul, R-Kentucky, and talk radio host Rush Limbaughafter all of them expressed admiration for Rand.
Ryan, architect of the GOP?s propsed budget and Medicare plan, once said that Rand?s philosophy was ?sorely needed right now,? and that she did a great job of explaining ?the morality of capitalism.?
Sapp sees little morality in Rand's worldview:
Rand said religion was ?evil,? called the message of John 3:16 ?monstrous,? argued that the weak are beyond love and undeserving of it, that loving your neighbor was immoral and impossible?
Sapp cited conservative leader Chuck Colson who released a video condemning Rand?s ?Atlas Shrugged? as a silly novel that ?peddles a starkly anti-Christian philosophy.?
Sapp added:
Hard to reconcile leaders of ?God?s Own Party? praising someone who is about as anti Christ as one can get, huh??
Onkar Ghate, a senior fellow at the Ayn Rand Center for Individual Rights in Washington, said the philosophies of Christianity and Ayn Rand are incompatible.
Jesus taught that people should love and serve others, including their enemies. Rand taught that people's fundamental focus should be on their individual happiness, he said:
I don?t think what Ayn Rand advocates in 'Atlas Shrugged' and what Jesus teaches in the Sermon on the Mount are compatible. She?s an egoist and therefore an individualist. Jesus is advocating altruism and collectivism.
Rand died in 1982, but she remains polarizing. The great recession has triggered new interest in her novel, ?Atlas Shrugged.? The book depicts a bleak future where the U.S. government has seized control of private industry and discouraged innovation.
The book may have been rooted in Rand's childhood trauma. She was born in Russiain 1905, and saw the Communist Party come to power in a violent revolution. Her family was left destitute after party officials seized her father?s business.
She immigrated to the United States where she eventually became a screenwriter. She ultimately made her mark through her novels. Critics say Rand?s characters were stilted mouthpieces for her philosophy of Objectivism, which insists that individuals should be driven by ?rational self-interest.? Still, "Atlas Shrugged" is now considered one of the most influential books of the 20th century.
Rand's philosophy didn?t say much good about religion. In a 1964 Playboyinterview posted on the Ayn Rand Center for Individual Rights site, she said that religious faith is ?a negation of human reason? and charity wasn?t a virtue.
Rand told Playboy:
There is nothing wrong in helping other people, if and when they are worthy of the help and you can afford to help them. I regard charity as a marginal issue. What I am fighting is the idea that charity is a moral duty and a primary virtue.
Defenders of Rand say that a person can adopt elements of Rand?s philosophy and reject whatever clashes with their faith.
Yaron Brooks, president of the Ayn Rand Center for Individual Rights, also defended Rand?s philosophy in a recent CNN.com commentary.
He said while people call Jesus or Mother Teresa heroes, they should use the same description for people like 19th century oil tycoon, John D. Rockefeller and inventor and businessman, Thomas Edison.
Their pursuit of personal profit is a virtue because it enriches society, not just individuals, Brooks said.
Brooks wrote:
It is they, not the Mother Teresas of the world that we should strive to be like and teach our kids the same.
Elections, some say, are ultimately a contest of ideas. It?ll be interesting to see if those political leaders who admire Rand continue to talk openly about her philosophy as the 2012 presidential campaign escalates.
Or will they deflect a question I suspect they?ll hear again and again:
How can you invoke Jesus and follow Rand?
 
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Jake;1929084; said:
With all due respect, what is also clear is that you have a vivid imagination. Not only do you have a god, you've invented the concept that time does not exist in god's world (which also has no evidence of its existence), and attempted to elevate it beyond question by suggesting our minds are incapable of comprehending it. It's all very convenient if one wants to believe the heaven story of the bible, but it has nothing to support it other than feelings, wishes, and legends.

The counter argument could be that our minds are so advanced we're capable of rationalizing things in ways other animals cannot. Is it a coincidence that humans are the only creatures who live in a world where we're willing to believe things as true - and base our lives on them - despite no evidence whatsoever to support that belief? So called "lower" animals, who lack the ability to rationalize and simply live their lives based on what their senses tell them, have no religion. Their minds are not deluded with feelings, wishes and legends, and they aren't spending this life chasing an imaginary one.
So now you're admitting you classify "us" as lower or at best equal to animals. :lol:

I also love the argument that extols the advanced nature of the human mind and in the same sentence resorts to the same tired rhetoric that humans are so inexcusably stupid that they live for and believe in fairy tales.

Except when they're atheists. Then mankind is wicked smart, perceptive and not succumbing to emotional thinking, as is evident throughout this thread

I've spent a lot of time around humans and we are certainly clever, but clear perception has never been evident in my time around humans, including myself.
 
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