OFFICIAL: Biblical/Theology Discussion thread

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

I'm afraid it's not that simple on the diabetes part. Weight loss does not = cure. I'm not obese by any means, though I have lost about 8 -10 pounds since I found out because of diet and exercise. I'm taking oral medication along with a modified diet and struggling to keep my blood sugar at acceptable levels. I'd say at most I would need to lose about 10 more pounds to be really where I want to be. Also if you fast 40 days the body starts eating itself including the muscles. Muscles are required to burn sugar.

Depends on the type of Diabetes too. Folks who "develop" diabetes late in life tend to be heavier. My uncle has Diabetes - has had it his whole life - and is quite slight.

 

[buckeyegrad]

People are free to believe that whatever is G-d's will.... but don't tell me I can't see it. It's insulting.

Well, isn't that what Gatorbuck just did?

And actually, I shared this woman's experience with you before and you dismissed it just like he did saying there was a natural explanation and that God was not directly at work. So, yes, I know it can be insulting.

Of course the fact that either of us find it insulting has zero weight on whether either one of us is correct. Just as what one believes about God is irrelevant to how God really is.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Well, isn't that what Gatorbuck just did?

Have to ask him. I read him as saying who is man to decide what is G-d's will and what is not? If I believe my surviving a car wreck was divine intervention, than to me that's what it is. If I believe it was dumb luck, that's what it was. But, no man can conclude what it was objectively.

And actually, I shared this woman's experience with you before and you dismissed it just as like he did saying there was a natural explanation and that God was not directly at work. So, yes, I know it can be insulting.

If what I said then sounded as if I had the "correct" answer, my apologies. If memory serves, I was trying to argue in favor of no miracles - that every event in this reality subscribing to the rules of nature, whether we are aware of those rules or not. Surely just my opinion on the issue, but one I believe is "actually" correct.... just the same as you believe your veiw is "actually" correct, no doubt.

Of course the fact that either of us find it insulting has zero weight on whether either one of us is correct.

True that.

 

[buckeyegrad]

Have to ask him. I read him as saying who is man to decide what is G-d's will and what is not? If I believe my surviving a car wreck was divine intervention, than to me that's what it is. If I believe it was dumb luck, that's what it was. But, no man can conclude what it was objectively.

He will have to speak for himself, but when such a question is raised in direct response to a story about a woman's faith in God's Will, then it certainly comes across as a dismissal...or at least a challenge.

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

Depends on the type of Diabetes too. Folks who "develop" diabetes late in life tend to be heavier. My uncle has Diabetes - has had it his whole life - and is quite slight.

I agree. But fasting for 40 days would not medically explain type I healing for sure. You'd be talking diabetic coma naturally speaking. I doubt BGrad was talking about a type I case, but if he was that is huge miracle.
Later in life would be type II, the one I managed to obtain at 25.

 

[buckeyegrad]

I agree. But fasting for 40 days would not medically explain type I healing for sure. You'd be talking diabetic coma naturally speaking. I doubt BGrad was talking about a type I case, but if he was that is huge miracle.
Later in life would be type II, the one I managed to obtain at 25.

I don't know what type of diabetes she has. I'll have to ask her when I see her on Saturday. Either way, her decision was not considered a wise one by her doctor.

 

[Gatorubet]

For those who do not know Him and cannot call God their friend, I understand why such a perspective is held.

Well, I guess you figured out God is not my friend.:( What is it? The tithes thing? Gator affiliation? At least you are in with the in crowd. Da Pope. Da Greek Other Orthodox Guy. Da Russian Other Orthodox Guy. Joseph Smith. All of you direct-line-to-the-almighty guys know what to say if the phone rings at 3:00 a.m., while - alas - I don't even know Him.

However, if this is the case, then your argument does not hold up. The perspective that says God's Will was not present is just as presumptous as the one saying it was present if in fact no one really can know what His Will is. Likewise, it is just as incorrect to say that God was judging New Orleans with Katrina as it is to say He was not judging New Orleans. If you do not know Him, and by consequence do not know His Will, then no legitimate claim can be really made against those who do because there is no position by which to make such judgments.

I did not say that I knew His will....I said that I doubted it was his wrath (OK - the Saints lack of success thing and your comment now give me pause), but I said that I could not know. You, OTOH, know.

Kudos.

But I have to ask you since you are tight and all - what the heck was up with the Indonesian Tsunami Grad? Inquiring minds...

 

[Gatorubet]

He will have to speak for himself, but when such a question is raised in direct response to a story about a woman's faith in God's Will, then it certainly comes across as a dismissal...or at least a challenge.

If not agreeing that anything that comes out of your mouth (or fingers) is automatically true is a "challenge", then - yeah - I guess it must be. :(

Grad, I said "I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, and it is a given that God could be working in the healing, but it is - to me - somewhat presumptuous for man to discern what is Divine intervention and what is not."

Which is my attempt to tone down the rhetoric by saying - um - rain parade. blah blah ...and also to admit that God could be healing, thereby not dismissing your thoughts. Sorry if that struck you so deeply that you thought you had to strike my Philistine head with the jawbone of a RichRod.

I'm mildly perturbed by your comment - and I say "perturbed" because I can't think of a word right now that means that but a little more amused and a little less pissed.

But I honestly did not post with an intent to insult you. Otherwise I would have talked about the 6,000 year old earth thingy. :2004:

 

[muffler dragon]

Well, I guess you figured out God is not my friend.:( What is it? The tithes thing? Gator affiliation? At least you are in with the in crowd. Da Pope. Da Greek Other Orthodox Guy. Da Russian Other Orthodox Guy. Joseph Smith. All of you direct-line-to-the-almighty guys know what to say if the phone rings at 3:00 a.m., while - alas - I don't even know Him.

I find myself wondering which is worse, "being ignorant of God" or reprobate. Hmmm...

 

[buckeyegrad]

Well, I guess you figured out God is not my friend.:( What is it? The tithes thing? Gator affiliation?

If I remember correctly, you belong to a Presybeterian sect, which would suggest you consider yourself a Christian. As such, I was speaking to you as a Christian. Being that the centerpiece of Christianity is seeking a relationship with God, seeking who He is, and seeking His Will, the perspective that God's Will cannot be known by anyone goes directly against this. Where the "friend" language comes into play is that to be considered His friend, according to Jesus, you must obey His commandments. To know and obey His commandments is to know His Will.

At least you are in with the in crowd. Da Pope. Da Greek Other Orthodox Guy. Da Russian Other Orthodox Guy. Joseph Smith. All of you direct-line-to-the-almighty guys know what to say if the phone rings at 3:00 a.m., while - alas - I don't even know Him.

At no point have I ever claimed to have special knowledge of the Will of God beyond that which belongs to every other Christian. What I do know of His Will is from what I study of His revelation of it to us through His prophets and the life of Jesus; and in my own personal life, and only my personal life, what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me.

But I have to ask you since you are tight and all - what the heck was up with the Indonesian Tsunami Grad? Inquiring minds...

Read Luke 13:1-9 for an answer. Anything more specific than that would require a prophet of which I am not. Oh, and I apply the same thing to New Orleans or anywhere else a natural disaster hits.

If not agreeing that anything that comes out of your mouth (or fingers) is automatically true is a "challenge", then - yeah - I guess it must be. :(

I know you are a lawyer, but what's with the rhetorical hyperbole?

Grad, I said "I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, and it is a given that God could be working in the healing, but it is - to me - somewhat presumptuous for man to discern what is Divine intervention and what is not."

First the facts: I did not say there was a healing as she still has diabetes. I said that God sustained her through the experience. Where God's Will comes into play is that He commanded her to fast for 40 days. Fasting itself is verifiable as God's Will as Jesus showed us that fasting, along with prayer and giving of alms, are to be cornerstones of our worship of God (read Matthew 6). To be required to do it for 40 days is unique to the individual, though we do have Jesus' own 40 day fast as an expample. Here, I would not question the revelation as she said it came from the Holy Spirit, she is know to be a Spirit-filled woman, and there is nothing in the command that would go against God's revelation to all of us. The fact that she was sustained through the 40 days and ended up in better health at the end of the period was confirmation that God had commanded her to do the fast. It may be important to note here, the reason she said she was suppose to fast had nothing to do with improving her health or being cured of diabetes--which she was not--but rather it was to have her draw closer in her relationship with God.

Second, I cannot overlook the context in which your post was made. In response to a comment made by a fellow Christian about fasting and diabetes, I shared with him a personal story regarding these two very issues as a means of encouragement. You then entered the conversation, which you had every right to do as a result of it being a public forum, dismissing anyone's ability to discern God's Will. Your comment about not raining on anyone's parade suggests an awareness that this was exactly what you were doing; attempting to soften the blow does not change what was done.

 

[Gatorubet]

I find myself wondering which is worse, "being ignorant of God" or reprobate. Hmmm...

noun

1.a depraved, unprincipled, or wicked person: a drunken reprobate.

2.a person rejected by God and beyond hope of salvation.

adjective

3.morally depraved; unprincipled; bad.

4.rejected by God and beyond hope of salvation.

Muffler, in what sense do you mean "reprobate", and how do you mean the query in connection with posting my quote, if I may ask?

 

[muffler dragon]

noun

1.a depraved, unprincipled, or wicked person: a drunken reprobate.

2.a person rejected by God and beyond hope of salvation.

adjective

3.morally depraved; unprincipled; bad.

4.rejected by God and beyond hope of salvation.

Muffler, in what sense do you mean "reprobate", and how do you mean the query in connection with posting my quote, if I may ask?

I've sent you a PM.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

For me, and again - I'm trying hard just to stay out of this for now, the point isn't whether or not this lady's story has anything to do with G-d's will, or His sustaining her or anything so much as it's something that gave her a feeling of closeness to G-d.

I said a similar thing when my Mom died in the speech I gave her. I went on a long talk about how she spoke to me after her death. The point wasn't if she did or did not speak to me.. the point is NOT if I heard her, or if I just convinced myself I did... It's not whether it was 'real' The point is that the event gave me comfort. Comfort in my pain of her death... and that was real... and that was important. So.. here too... if this woman needed some sort of sign or whatever this event is supposed to mean to her spiritually... so be it. It doesn't matter if it's real. It matters that it had a purpose.

 

[Gatorubet]

If I remember correctly, you belong to a Presybeterian sect, which would suggest you consider yourself a Christian. As such, I was speaking to you as a Christian. Being that the centerpiece of Christianity is seeking a relationship with God, seeking who He is, and seeking His Will, the perspective that God's Will cannot be known by anyone goes directly against this. Where the "friend" language comes into play is that to be considered His friend, according to Jesus, you must obey His commandments. To know and obey His commandments is to know His Will.

So you were speaking to me as a Christian when you responded that I did not know God, nor was He my friend, referencing part of my post? Thanks Brother.

At no point have I ever claimed to have special knowledge of the Will of God beyond that which belongs to every other Christian.

Except, I guess, your previously expressed knowledge of MY lack of a relationship with God. But to be fair, maybe you possess that as general and not specific knowledge.

I know you are a lawyer, but what's with the rhetorical hyperbole?

Maybe I'm parsing, but the lack of an interrogative form seems to me to remove any rhetorical aspect. And one man's hyperbole is another man's GPA.:tongue2:

First the facts: I did not say there was a healing as she still has diabetes. I said that God sustained her through the experience. Where God's Will comes into play is that He commanded her to fast for 40 days. Fasting itself is verifiable as God's Will as Jesus showed us that fasting, along with prayer and giving of alms, are to be cornerstones of our worship of God (read Matthew 6). To be required to do it for 40 days is unique to the individual, though we do have Jesus' own 40 day fast as an example. Here, I would not question the revelation as she said it came from the Holy Spirit, she is know to be a Spirit-filled woman, and there is nothing in the command that would go against God's revelation to all of us. The fact that she was sustained through the 40 days and ended up in better health at the end of the period was confirmation that God had commanded her to do the fast. It may be important to note here, the reason she said she was suppose to fast had nothing to do with improving her health or being cured of diabetes--which she was not--but rather it was to have her draw closer in her relationship with God.

See where I acknowledged that it might be God's doing. Again, I can see how the thought of a heathen "might" instead of a saintly "was" got you going.

Second, I cannot overlook the context in which your post was made. In response to a comment made by a fellow Christian about fasting and diabetes, I shared with him a personal story regarding these two very issues as a means of encouragement. You then entered the conversation, which you had every right to do as a result of it being a public forum, dismissing anyone's ability to discern God's Will. Your comment about not raining on anyone's parade suggests an awareness that this was exactly what you were doing; attempting to soften the blow does not change what was done.

Grad. Bubby. The context was me floating the possibility that someone (me) does not lock-step agree with you on a valid theological issue which is not exactly written in stone. I mean, I am happy that you are the go-to guy on matters of God's will, but it is a personal belief of mine that "Faith" is all at once one of the most crucial and least important aspect of any faith. I mean, every religion can produce honest to Deity examples of great people who really really believe in their flavor religion, and that they alone can tell what the mind of God is. And those honest, sincere people of faith can also point to the genuine and otherwise inexplicable miracles, be it Glenn Becks's getting a great job a the exact moment of his conversion to the LDS Church or the sudden reversal of a life threatening medical condition after praying to the Smallpox Goddess.

The "certainty" of your faith is not shared by me on all aspects of what is still a "Christian" belief. I try to combine an intellectual and spiritual approach to my beliefs, which is not to say that you do not, but I guess a better way to say it is to say that I am not a "God said it, I believe it, that ends it" type of Christian. Feel free to discount my Christianity. But I am open to the possibility that Pat Robertson did not pray away a hurricane, just as I am open to the possibility that asking folks to pray for my mom will indeed bring her healing. But it may not. Because I do not know God's will. You say "Here, I would not question the revelation as she said it came from the Holy Spirit..."

Know what? I would question it. Too many people have told me in too many circumstances over too many years that things are God's will that clearly are not. Not kooks, per se, but honest people who like to think that what they want to do is what God wants them to do.

And my comment about not raining on your parade was made because when I think about theological free thinkers, your avatar does not leap to my mind, and I was trying not to piss you off by not agreeing.*

Since you "would not question", that leaves little room for discussion, no?

And that is my fault how?


*Here, we must consider that it is God's will that you are pissed at me.

 

[Gatorubet]

For me, and again - I'm trying hard just to stay out of this for now...