OFFICIAL: Biblical/Theology Discussion thread

[buckeyegrad]

Matthew 24:36 - But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only

Yes, no one knows the day or hour, but we should know the season. Look four verses before the one you quote and you will see from the lesson of the fig tree that the general time will be known.

(Of course in 24:34 Jesus said it would happen within their lifetime, but you can't have everything I suppose)

Ah, but the question is what exactly is Jesus answering and there is a lot of argument on this one within Christian circles. Personally, I believe Jesus' prophesy of "it" happening before the generation passes did come to be fulfilled, because the 'it" referred to the destruction of the temple, which happened 40 years after Jesus' prophesy. I say this because in Jesus' teaching on the Mount of Olives he is answering two questions posed by his disciples: when will the temple be destroyed (which Jesus had just prophesied) and what will be the sign of his coming and the end of the age.

Another possibility is that some scholars argue that "generation" is the incorrect translation of the Greek word genea, as the word can also mean "race". So it is also possible Jesus was promising that the Jews will still be around when the end comes despite all of the horrible things that will come to pass--including the destruction of their temple.



As for the last days statement, I'm not saying this is correct, but there is a Jewish tradition that could explain why the last days would be 2000+ years in length. Some Jewish writers have held that the world would exist in toil for six thousand years, each 1000 years representing a day to God. On the seventh day, or seventh set of 1000 years, the messiah would come and establish a Sabbath rest for the entire earth that would last 1000 years--much like the prophesy in Revelation 20. Therefore, if we use this tradition, it could be possible that the last 2000 years represent days 5 and 6 of 7 and hence would be in the last days of the 6 in which the Earth remains in toil. Again, I'm not saying this is correct, but it is certainly an interesting though.

 

[lvbuckeye]

(Of course in 24:34 Jesus said it would happen within their lifetime, but you can't have everything I suppose)

i suppose if you take that one specific verse literally, but considering the fact that that whole portion was written figuratively, does it not seem like you're taking that verse out of context? after all, in verse 9, He said that they would be killed... on the surface it might seem like a contradiction, but to the believer, He was speaking to ALL believers, not just to the 11.

13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." the end of what? the world? no one fits that category, therefore, He must have been speaking of those who would endure to THEIR end.

does that make sense?

 

[lvbuckeye]

You know I think we all just completely misunderstood what you were trying to say...

I have a feeling everyone was just waiting for your first bit of "proof" to be the establishment of Israel in '48.

oh no. you won't hear that from me. that scenario you mentioned either is preterist or futurist, i'm not sure. i've never read anything about the establishment of Isreal as being key in any historicist views.

 

[Muck]

Ah, but the question is what exactly is Jesus answering and there is a lot of argument on this one within Christian circles. Personally, I believe Jesus' prophesy of "it" happening before the generation passes did come to be fulfilled, because the 'it" referred to the destruction of the temple, which happened 40 years after Jesus' prophesy. I say this because in Jesus' teaching on the Mount of Olives he is answering two questions posed by his disciples: when will the temple be destroyed (which Jesus had just prophesied) and what will be the sign of his coming and the end of the age.

Well he stated that "it" was "ALL these things". That's pretty cut & dry in my book. I don't feel a need to start jumping through hoops on that one.

 

[buckeyegrad]

No, not true. The early christians believed in reincarnation, i just read that recently.. the church changed their stance on that in like year 1000 something.

Sorry, but that is simply not true. Yes, there were people who claimed to be Christians (e.g. gnostics) who claimed reincarnation, but there is zero indication of this being supported in either the New Testament or the writings of the pre-Nicean fathers.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qreinkr.html

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/reinc.html

 

[lvbuckeye]

Well he stated that "it" was "ALL these things". That's pretty cut & dry in my book. I don't feel a need to start jumping through hoops on that one.

including them being killed?

 

[CookyPuss]

Sorry, but that is simply not true. Yes, there were people who claimed to be Christians (e.g. gnostics) who claimed reincarnation, but there is zero indication of this being supported in either the New Testament or the writings of the pre-Nicean fathers.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qreinkr.html

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/reinc.html

100% agreed. The early Christians believed in an imminent resurrection of the dead. The prevailing view of Judaism of the day taught of a resurrection of the physical body, like Ezekiel's dry bones rising from the dust. The raising of Lazarus was such a resuscitation of the physical corpse. Early Christianity diverted into teaching of a resurrection of the spiritual body. Paul writes about how a new body will be given, moving beyond simple resuscitation. I believe you could have shown Paul Jesus' corpse and it would have had no impact upon his belief in the resurrection of Jesus because for him, Christ was given a spiritual body.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

I've posted some thoughts that are probably more appropriate on this thread Here

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

In regards to Matthew 24:34
Mat 24:34 Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled.

Pronouns, such as "thing" or "It" in Hebrew nearly always refers to the item last mentioned. The last mentioned is the parable of the fig tree (Jesus mentioned that it was a parable so we know not to take Him literally). Throughout the OT the Fig Tree was a representation of Israel. Well If Israel is a Fig Tree exactly how does the rest of that fit in? Many people look at the prophecies in Ezekiel 38 for the answer. Ezekiel 38 describes Jews returning to the Holy Land, forming their own nation and accepting Jesus as their true savior. Scholars aren't sure if the fulfillment of this prophecy was in 1948 as Muck mention or in 67 when Jerusalem once again became part Israel. Anyway "this generation" should refer to the generation that witnessed the fig tree sprout leaves whenever the date of the fulfillment of that prophecy is. In other words I disagree with BGrad that it or thing refers to the destruction of the temple and I disagree that "this generation" refers to Jesus contemporaries. The date of Israel's existence as a nation would be significant to a futurist.

Furthermore I would like to examine Revelations 1:1 as lv refers to many times:

A Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to declare to His servants things which must shortly come to pass. And He signified it by sending His angel to His servant John

Once again "A Revelation of Jesus Christ" refers to the authorship as opposed to who is being revealed. It doesn't make grammatical sense for it to be any other way.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

T-Scott - Matthew was written in Greek, not Hebrew. Your observation might be correct with respect to Greek, so far as I know.. just saying - how Hebrew works is irrelevant in a discussion of Matthew.

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

my mistake but I think I just changed the language name and the rule should still apply.

 

[CookyPuss]

T-Scott - Matthew was written in Greek, not Hebrew. Your observation might be correct with respect to Greek, so far as I know.. just saying - how Hebrew works is irrelevant in a discussion of Matthew.

And Jesus spoke in Aramaic, further clouding the issue.

Jesus and his followers were not the only one's in that time who believed the "end of times" was near. Remember, they were living in the powder keg of Israel which was about to explode into revolution against the Romans. As the teachings of John the Baptist and the Dead Sea Scrolls attest, this was a popular belief in those days.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

And Jesus spoke in Aramaic, further clouding the issue.

Jesus and his followers were not the only one's in that time who believed the "end of times" was near. Remember, they were living in the powder keg of Israel which was about to explode into revolution against the Romans. As the teachings of John the Baptist and the Dead Sea Scrolls attest, this was a popular belief in those days.

I've also heard - but do not know enough to speak with any particular authority yet - that alleged Messiahs were a dime a dozen in those days. Assuming I learn more, I'll be more specific in the future.

 

[CookyPuss]

I've also heard - but do not know enough to speak with any particular authority yet - that alleged Messiahs were a dime a dozen in those days. Assuming I learn more, I'll be more specific in the future.

I wouldn't go so far as to say "dime a dozen" but there were others. Judas of Galilee was a famous one who led a revolt in 6 AD. Remember, the majority of Jews expected the messiah to be a political or military leader who would overthrow Rome. Very different from one who would die on a cross.

 

[sandgk]

Always interesting when history and archaeology intersect with religion.

The latest such example? Herod's tomb has been found.

An Israeli archaeologist has found the tomb of King Herod after a 35-year search. It is in the ruins of Herod's fortified palace on a hilltop outside Jerusalem.
The discovery was made in Herodium, a flattened hilltop in the desert east of Jerusalem, by Professor Ehud Netzer, one of the world's leading experts on Herod. He began concentrating his search on the palace in Herodium in 1972. But although most historians and archaeologists remained convinced that Herod was buried there, up until now no substantial evidence had been found.
....
Haaretz reported that Professor Netzer had been successful because he focused on a different part of Herodium than in previous excavations, between the upper part of Herodium and the site's two palaces.