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Oden vs. Durant

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no the reality in this discussion lies one one thing.

a myth

people think that 20, 30, 40 years ago everyteam had a dominate big man. not true. just as today at any given time 3 maybe 4 were around and they passed the championship trophies around the majority of the time.

and on these "versatile" guys, thats nothing new either. guys are bigger now, the average man is bigger, the bigger guys are bigger. everyone is bigger including normal non pro ahtletes. these big guys who can dribble and shoot existed back in the day, they just werent seven feet, but then again the big guys today are 7 5, 7 2 stuff like that. so you have everyone on the floor 3 or four inches taller. you had atheltic big guys who could score and rebound and pass as dirk can today. thats nothing new, im sorry. thats marketing at its best...
 
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jimotis4heisman;749931; said:
no the reality in this discussion lies one one thing.

a myth

people think that 20, 30, 40 years ago everyteam had a dominate big man. not true. just as today at any given time 3 maybe 4 were around and they passed the championship trophies around the majority of the time.

and on these "versatile" guys, thats nothing new either. guys are bigger now, the average man is bigger, the bigger guys are bigger. everyone is bigger including normal non pro ahtletes. these big guys who can dribble and shoot existed back in the day, they just werent seven feet, but then again the big guys today are 7 5, 7 2 stuff like that. so you have everyone on the floor 3 or four inches taller. you had atheltic big guys who could score and rebound and pass as dirk can today. thats nothing new, im sorry. thats marketing at its best...
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That is a good way of looking at it...But a question for you since I wasnt around to follow basketball back then, but the game wasnt as perimeter oriented back then as it now with the 3 point line, fact or fiction?
 
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crazybuckfan40 said:
That is a good way of looking at it...But a question for you since I wasnt around to follow basketball back then, but the game wasnt as perimeter oriented back then as it now with the 3 point line, fact or fiction?
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the definition of perimeter is different...

i mean the game has "evlolved" you had run and gun eras and what not, and you had set eras. its hard to say. but i would say the def or perm has changed greatly. you wouldnt have 4 guys standing around 24 feet from the hoop half the time like you have now.
 
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jimotis4heisman;749956; said:
the definition of perimeter is different...

i mean the game has "evlolved" you had run and gun eras and what not, and you had set eras. its hard to say. but i would say the def or perm has changed greatly. you wouldnt have 4 guys standing around 24 feet from the hoop half the time like you have now.
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So with one guy really controlling the paint on offense a dominant center would be great for todays game...
 
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jimotis4heisman;749898; said:
and honestly if you dont think wilt and guys of that era weren as atheltic as these guys today you need to do some homework... sure the game has changed with nutrition and weightlifting but wilt if born in 1980 would have been a superstar today...
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Don't put words in my mouth JO...never once commented on the athleticism of Wilt. I did comment on the style basketball played...would you say its the same game that was played then?


jimotis4heisman;749898; said:
no the reality in this discussion lies one one thing.

a myth

people think that 20, 30, 40 years ago everyteam had a dominate big man. not true. just as today at any given time 3 maybe 4 were around and they passed the championship trophies around the majority of the time.

and on these "versatile" guys, thats nothing new either. guys are bigger now, the average man is bigger, the bigger guys are bigger. everyone is bigger including normal non pro ahtletes. these big guys who can dribble and shoot existed back in the day, they just werent seven feet, but then again the big guys today are 7 5, 7 2 stuff like that. so you have everyone on the floor 3 or four inches taller. you had atheltic big guys who could score and rebound and pass as dirk can today. thats nothing new, im sorry. thats marketing at its best...
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Marketing? The fact that bigger, stronger, faster guys play pro sports now is marketing? We'll just have to disagree on that point.

My entire point is that the old school 5 is not vital...you have both given numerous examples of "tweeners" and versatile athletes who are just as effective. That is due to the evolution of the game in my opinion...the NBA game has changed. People want sparkle and they want dunks and they want speed...the NBA has morphed its product to meet that. Lost in the shuffle is the old model of a center...

Question: If the dominant 5 is so vital, why is the European model of versatility kicking our NBA ass?
 
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HabaneroBuck;749892; said:
Actually, Bill Simmons never said he would clearly take Durant number one. He's just enamored with his skills. If the Celts had the number one pick, I'm pretty sure he would grit his teeth and say, "Go Oden." That's what I get from his articles.

And, now Slate throws out the "once-in-a-lifetime" tagline. The hyperbole with football and basketball prospects is insulting to our intelligence. LeBron was once-in-a-lifetime...Oden is...Durant is...Kevin Love is...Reggie Bush is...Vince Young is....ad nauseum. Isn't a lifetime a span of 70 years? Let's say "once-in-a-generation." A generation is about 20 years. Even THEN you can name guys like the current stars within the past 20 years. They really mean to say, "he's the best we've seen in the last four or five years."
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The thing about the Celts is that they already have a small forward (that's what Durant will probably be in the NBA) in Paul Pierce.
 
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osugrad21;749974; said:
My entire point is that the old school 5 is not vital...you have both given numerous examples of "tweeners" and versatile athletes who are just as effective. That is due to the evolution of the game in my opinion...the NBA game has changed. People want sparkle and they want dunks and they want speed...the NBA has morphed its product to meet that. Lost in the shuffle is the old model of a center...

Question: If the dominant 5 is so vital, why is the European model of versatility kicking our NBA ass?
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The old model is lost because there arent any out there, but guys like Shaq, Duncan still dominate the league...Which is why a guy like Oden is the number one pick over a guy that there are already scattered throughout the league...

As far as the European model kicking our ass...That IMO has to do with the fact that we go into these world championships not playing as a team...I almost think we would be better served to send the NBA champions with a guy or two scattered in and we would be better served...Also the rest of he world can actually shoot the ball. I think that is where the NBA has feel off the map...You used to have guys like Larry Bird who could knock down any shot, but now your stars are lucky to shot at a 40% clip from behind the arc...
 
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crazybuckfan40;749984; said:
The old model is lost because there arent any out there, but guys like Shaq, Duncan still dominate the league...Which is why a guy like Oden is the number one pick over a guy that there are already scattered throughout the league...
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So you two are telling me that the large framed 7 footers do not exist anymore? They exist...the only rarity is that they are not athletic enough anymore to contribute let alone dominate. Those guys haven't changed...the game has changed.
 
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jimotis4heisman;749994; said:
i said this earlier
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Right and I accept that...however, the X factor you refer to with MJ, wouldn't that also go for those guys back then? My argument deals with the assertion that they are not that X factor anymore...at least not to the degree of the past.

Difference of opinion...no big deal. Enjoyable discussion though
 
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oh i agree. and you know, i hope that its a discussion. you seem teams build different ways. thats the thing. personally my belief is drafting the big man is the greater risk, greater reward, but less less likely to pan out (even with "cant miss" guys) vs. a guy who will be a very good nba player with a high likelyhood, but at the sametime possibilites of him being an mj or something amazing like that is slim to none.

how many good 3s are out there? a dozen at any given time over the last lets say 20 years. sure youve had a couple of once in a lifetime guys, but how many true big men are out there at the sametime? 3 or 4?

guys ended up looking like morons passing on jordan. but thats the thing, who really knows. injuries could kill any players career.

if i thought i could get one of those 3 or 4 big man who can dominate the game in their prime id pass on any gaurd. thats me.

also on dwade, so much credit goes to shaq. big man have the ability to not show up in the box score with their value. the ability to eat space cannot be quantified...
 
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I'm going to inject my 2 cents. Clearly Durant is great player, but unless you feel you can project him to be on MJs level of dominance how can you take him over Oden? MJ is the, one count them: one, dominant wing player who won without a dominant big man. Even if you're projecting Durant as Lebron, Kobe, McGrady they haven't won anything without a big man. On the other hand if you t think Oden can be Duncan you can put quality players like Ginobili and Parker around and are more likely to win a championship.
 
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