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Oden vs. Durant

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jimotis4heisman;749857; said:
durants a 3, odens a true back to the basket 5. how many good/great 3s out there are there? a dozen? how many good/great 5s are there? shaq, yao, duncan (if you say hes a five not a four debateable but ill slide him in the true five spot)
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Isn't that more of a statement of the evolution of the game itself? How important is a dominant 5 anymore?
 
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I don't think a dominant 5 is as important as it used to be because there just doesn't seem to be much true talent at the position. I think we're in an era of underdeveloped players with small frames who are more prone to play street ball than true basketball within a system...which would then effect the need or lack of need for a dominant center. That being said, Shaq seems a bit of a dinosaur at the position, but it has obviously been paying off for the teams he plays for.

Anymore, it seems the center doesn't need to be so much an offensive threat as he does a space-eater, shot blocking threat. First person that comes to mind: Ben Wallace.

I think the play of the game has influenced the center position's impact on the court. Oden could bring back nuances of the Ewing/Hakeem days. Since then, IMO, Mourning & Shaq were the last great center tandem in the NBA.
 
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osugrad21;749859; said:
Isn't that more of a statement of the evolution of the game itself? How important is a dominant 5 anymore?
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Look at the last 8 years of championships...

You have Shaq and Duncan cleaning up on finals MVP's, you have last year when Wade won the MVP but Shaq was still there and then you have Pistons championship where Billups won the MVP, but Shaq was still there. Either way you look at either Shaq or Duncan have been in the finals for 8 straight years. 6 times taking the MVP home.

I would say while teams are going away from the dominant 5 b/c honestly they arent out there that much anymore but a dominant 5 is undeniably the best advantage that a team can have.

And I agree that Durant has the potential to be a 30/8/5 type guy which is great, but how many good SF's that are 6'9'' in the league. Guys like LBJ, McGrady, Pierce, Carter, Lewis, etc. I understand that some of these guys arent all-stars, but the thing was you look at these guys and the college game hasnt been seeing these guys, like they are seeing Durant this year b/c these are the types of guys that have been drafted straight out of high school...
 
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have Pistons championship where Billups won the MVP, but Shaq was still there.
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but big ben and sheed arent chopped liver. they both are in the next group of bigs. so essentially the pistons not having the big guy, went for two second level tier bigs (another handful of maybe six) to attack the problem of shaq/duncan matchup. throw in a mutumbo and those teams had three very good bigs.
 
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jimotis4heisman;749876; said:
but big ben and sheed arent chopped liver. they both are in the next group of bigs. so essentially the pistons not having the big guy, went for two second level tier bigs (another handful of maybe six) to attack the problem of shaq/duncan matchup. throw in a mutumbo and those teams had three very good bigs.
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I agree they are big men, but not really true 5's as grad was alluding too...

But Wallace has the stregth and defensive ability to alter a game on the defensive end like a guy like Oden, Shaq, Duncan or a true 5.
 
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crazybuckfan40;749873; said:
Look at the last 8 years of championships...

You have Shaq and Duncan cleaning up on finals MVP's, you have last year when Wade won the MVP but Shaq was still there and then you have Pistons championship where Billups won the MVP, but Shaq was still there. Either way you look at either Shaq or Duncan have been in the finals for 8 straight years. 6 times taking the MVP home.

I would say while teams are going away from the dominant 5 b/c honestly they arent out there that much anymore but a dominant 5 is undeniably the best advantage that a team can have.
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Pistons...is Wallace a classic 5 as defined? Last year's Heat? That was Wade's show. The Bulls dynasty? Who was their dominant 5?

I'll give you Duncan...he is dominant, but he could also run a 4 all day.

I would hardly call it "undeniable." JO says its a big man's game...I agree, but the big men are now doing things that they couldn't do 20 years ago...that is what I call evolution of the game. An old school 5 is a rarity because most of them can morph from 3-5 depending on the lineup.
 
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from Slate.com:

Kevin Durant
How the NBA could screw up college basketball's best player.
By Nathaniel Friedman
Posted Friday, Feb. 9, 2007, at 5:30 PM ET

Kevin Durant is a once-in-a-lifetime prospect. The 6-foot-10 guard-forward-center is impossibly smooth and athletic. He can score from anywhere, control the boards, and is an ever-improving ball-handler. The 18-year-old University of Texas star is averaging 25 points and 11 rebounds a game in the highly competitive Big 12, making him the frontrunner to win college basketball's Naismith Player of the Year award as a freshman. Durant's stock with pro teams is off the charts. Before this college season, it was a given that Ohio State's imposing 7-footer Greg Oden would be the top pick in the 2007 NBA draft. Now, everyone from ESPN.com's Bill Simmons to NBA super scout David Thorpe has decreed that Durant should be the one.

Continued...
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osugrad21;749880; said:
Pistons...is Wallace a classic 5 as defined? Last year's Heat? That was Wade's show. The Bulls dynasty? Who was their dominant 5?

I'll give you Duncan...he is dominant, but he could also run a 4 all day.

I would hardly call it "undeniable." JO says its a big man's game...I agree, but the big men are now doing things that they couldn't do 20 years ago...that is what I call evolution of the game. An old school 5 is a rarity because most of them can morph from 3-5 depending on the lineup.
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I alluded to Wallace in the post above, but keep in mind while a bit undersized he is dominant on the defensive end as a true 5 would be. Also the Pistons had 4 all-stars combined on one team...

Yeah it was Wade's show, but what has happenened to the Heat without Shaq this year...They don't even have a .500 record...

I realize the Bulls didnt have a dominant 5, but they didnt need one with the NBA's greatest player of all time and another one of the NBA's greatest 50 players of all time.

Duncan could run the four, but he is back to the basket type guy...

I will give you that overall basketball has evolved, but a true 5 is a rarity b/c they don't come along that often and you can get more out of a guy like Dirk or say someone like that doesnt have the body to be a dominant 5 but can be a stud on the perimeter...

All in all I am not saying that you can't win without a dominant 5, but with a team like the Suns, Mavs, etc. that are the new style game with Amare running up and down the court and Dirk playing on the perimeter, but they are winning championships b/c they struggle on the defensive end, b/c teams can get into the paint and get easy baskets...That doesnt happen when you have a game changer in the paint defensively...
 
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Actually, Bill Simmons never said he would clearly take Durant number one. He's just enamored with his skills. If the Celts had the number one pick, I'm pretty sure he would grit his teeth and say, "Go Oden." That's what I get from his articles.

And, now Slate throws out the "once-in-a-lifetime" tagline. The hyperbole with football and basketball prospects is insulting to our intelligence. LeBron was once-in-a-lifetime...Oden is...Durant is...Kevin Love is...Reggie Bush is...Vince Young is....ad nauseum. Isn't a lifetime a span of 70 years? Let's say "once-in-a-generation." A generation is about 20 years. Even THEN you can name guys like the current stars within the past 20 years. They really mean to say, "he's the best we've seen in the last four or five years."
 
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crazybuckfan40;749890; said:
I alluded to Wallace in the post above, but keep in mind while a bit undersized he is dominant on the defensive end as a true 5 would be. Also the Pistons had 4 all-stars combined on one team...

Yeah it was Wade's show, but what has happenened to the Heat without Shaq this year...They don't even have a .500 record...

I realize the Bulls didnt have a dominant 5, but they didnt need one with the NBA's greatest player of all time and another one of the NBA's greatest 50 players of all time.

Duncan could run the four, but he is back to the basket type guy...

I will give you that overall basketball has evolved, but a true 5 is a rarity b/c they don't come along that often and you can get more out of a guy like Dirk or say someone like that doesnt have the body to be a dominant 5 but can be a stud on the perimeter...

All in all I am not saying that you can't win without a dominant 5, but with a team like the Suns, Mavs, etc. that are the new style game with Amare running up and down the court and Dirk playing on the perimeter, but they are winning championships b/c they struggle on the defensive end, b/c teams can get into the paint and get easy baskets...That doesnt happen when you have a game changer in the paint defensively...
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Apples and oranges really...is Shaq the only reason the Heat are struggling? I'd think there are quite a few factors there.

Wallace plays like a true 5...but he is not a typical 5. That is my point about versatility in today's players.

With Duncan...again, versatility...that is what I'm saying.

Of course the Bulls had one of the greatest of all-time...but still, no dominant 5 man and plenty of championships.

Dirk is a great example...and I also agree about the defense. However, I don't see why a team must be built around the center...an adequate defender obviously works with a strong combination of athletes around him.

I'm not discounting that the big man is important...but I am disagreeing that a 5 is the most critical factor on the floor.
 
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osugrad21 said:
Pistons...is Wallace a classic 5 as defined? Last year's Heat? That was Wade's show. The Bulls dynasty? Who was their dominant 5?

I'll give you Duncan...he is dominant, but he could also run a 4 all day.

I would hardly call it "undeniable." JO says its a big man's game...I agree, but the big men are now doing things that they couldn't do 20 years ago...that is what I call evolution of the game. An old school 5 is a rarity because most of them can morph from 3-5 depending on the lineup.
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sheed and big ben are both tweeners. big ben is a 4.5 and sheed a 4.5 but can play the 5. what youve got is a team who wants to create a mismatch, using in reality, three guys including mutumbo to defend one guy. using those guys to create mismatches on the offensive end to exploit the mismatch. the samw way the pistons currently will use sheed, weber, dale davis, and mohammed in the playoffs.


duncan is a five. i throw that out there early on he played the four. at this stage with his ankles and what not he cant play out on the floor like he once did. interestingly enough in the "old" duncan days with robinson he actually played a lot of high post, which is essentially a five also...

the bulls. interestingly enough they used what i call the izzo philosphy. using 4 bigger guys on the floor. you had mj at the 2, pippen at the 3. then you had a rodman at the 4 and a decent serviceable series of big men who could pass, screen, rebound and create tos. this is your best argument and i agree i might be flawed here. but the x factor is mike jordan. a guy who at 40 could drop 40 on any night. if durant becomes that player then hes the right choice. jordan was special for his ability to do that, he could do at 40, not on an everyt night basis his body could no longer go for 38 mins a night, but when needed he could drop 40 on you with the wiz. something truely truely special

heres what you have
heat o mavs
spurs o pistons
pistons o lakers
spurs o nets
lakers o nets
lakers o 7ers
lakers o pacers
spurs o knicks
bull o jazz
bulls o jazz
bulls o sonics
rockets o magic
rockets o knicks


that is my defintion of big men higlighted. take it or leave it.

and your "bulls argument" maybe just shows an evolution of the game in my favor maybe?

and honestly if you dont think wilt and guys of that era weren as atheltic as these guys today you need to do some homework... sure the game has changed with nutrition and weightlifting but wilt if born in 1980 would have been a superstar today...
 
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Just so we are clear, I agree that the big man has became a position where versatility is valued...

But my main point is that teams with that dominant big guy on the defensive end and can force double triple teams in the paint to open up the rest of the floor is IMO the best advantage that a team can have on the basketball court.

Yes you can win with dominant guards and an adequate big man, but look at the Cavs, you can't tell me with a guy like Ben Wallace, or Shaq in the middle that wouldnt make the game that much easier on defense rathen than their adequate big man in big Z. And if you have a guy like Shaq you are getting open shots for 3 point shooters all over the floor with a guy like him and LBJ opening up the floor.


And another point that I was sorta trying to make earlier, but am curious as to peoples opinion on this, is that the reason why Durant is so dominant in college, is b/c you don't have anyone in college that can defend a 6'9'' SF. Put him in the NBA and while he will still be effective, you have guys that can match up with him use their stregth against him. B4 this past season you have seen all these guys going straight to the NBA instead of going to college, but you can tell me that guys like LBJ, McGrady, etc. wouldnt of dominated the college game in the same way that Durant is doing...

That is why guys like Brewer(UF), Green(GTown) are so valuable in the college game, b/c why they arent the greatest offensive guys like Durant, they have the height and length to be able to defend against a guy like Durant and score some points due to the mismatch that they cause on offense.
 
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