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My views on striking other people... Can they be reconciled?

I grew up in an environment where my father never hit my mother (when they were together), my grandfather never hit my grandmother, my uncles never hit my aunts and so on and so forth. To me that wasn't normal behavior and I've never been with a woman that thought it was normal nor acceptable thus it has never been part of my life. Neither has been hitting children, when I was disciplined it was with a cupped hand design to make noise rather than inflict pain. Some people however weren't brought up that way, they saw their parents hit each other, they were hit by their parents thus they think it's normal. That doesn't make it right but you can at least understand why it happens, the behavior is passed down through the generations which is probably why if your parents smoke or abuse drugs and alcohol you're likely to do the same. It's hard to unteach that behavior. It's like when you obtain a dog that wasn't house broken and then try to teach it not to shit in the house, it's almost impossible.
 
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Yup - thankfully he mostly missed - but that didn't excuse the action. They've both gotten whacked a couple times for being careless in a parking lot when cars are moving.

That's the other thing, there's smacking them with the intent to send a message and with the intent to actually hurt them. I'll never ever hit them that hard. Even today with my son, I only got him enough to make sure I had his attention, and after his had his little cry, I sat him down and told him exactly why I did it.

The key is you can't reason with or beg the kids to behave, you have to set the standard and enforce it.

This has been an interesting thread so far.

I've never spanked my kid. But, I'm only sort of against it. My wife will tell you, "We don't do that in my house" -- but I think she'd cross the line before I would. But I'm only sort of against it in that I don't want to go there unless I feel like that's right answer.

At any rate, like some have mentioned, my mom spanked, belted, wooden spooned, hair brushed my butt... more than one bloody nose from being smacked in the face for having a smart mouth... it was fine, the context was right... I knew she wasn't trying to hurt me.

On the other hand, my kid knows when I grab her arm (and yeah, I take a very firm grip, but don't yank or pull or anything) in the parking lot....

BuckStocks comments are interesting... and I think its all to do with presentation and messaging. I used to make fun of the "time out" people, or the go to your room people... (I never got the counting thing, other than I did it a couple times just for fun and it worked, and I have no idea why)... but, back to the hug after thing, I mean, with my kid... the timeout works in some cases because its not just a "stop what you're doing" -- if your kid knows you love them and have their best interest in mind, whether you spank them or ground them or time out them, and you impress upon them what it is they've done wrong and why they can't continue to do it, and if appropriate why they've disappointed you and that their behavior impacts you too because you love them... its going to be effective.

But, then you have to parse out discipline and compelling behavior. And they aren't always the same thing. I had a conversation with a friend about... and I think this was in the preschool days... about a "stranger" disciplining his kid. And I mean, I just don't think "strangers" can do that. There's no trust there. They can (and at preschool or day care) and need to compel a certain behavior at a specific time, and I think parents do too (I mean every little thing isn't a freaking life learning moment)... So I don't worry about that all that much because your average stranger isn't gonna have that relationship. (Teachers fall across that spectrum). To me there lies a difference between a punishment and a consequence, as well... though they can take the same form. Taken with no context, If you asked my kid whether she'd rather have no TV for a week or to get spanked, she'd "get it over with" -- so that only would give me one chance to impress my point rather than a week's worth. :wink:
 
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Correct. It's all a matter of defense. I'm not a proponent of retribution - though I understand the instinct, it is still wrong.
In your opinion. If a person willing strikes another in other than self-defense, that person just forfeited his/her right to protection and the person struck now has the right to respond in kind. You may disagree, but there's a reason for that "instinct".
 
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There's a reason for the instinct to run like the fucking wind when you hear loud noises too, but I don't imagine you'd think it was ok to jump up from dinner, flip the table and run down the street barefoot if a motorbike drives by.
 
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My mom used to do ninja shit to me. I was 6' and over 250 lbs at fifteen? She knew hitting me wasn't gonna do shit, so when i would mouth off or whatever, she'd act all sad or just be like fuck it. THE SECOND I let my guard down, I'd get a portable phone upside the head. :lol: She was like Greg Maddux. She didn't have the heat, but she could hit me in the upper lip with the corner of the yellow pages at sixty paces.
 
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Spanking is in the news right now because of the Adrian Petersen situation, but spanking has been under attack for the last 4-5 decades. There are several important facets to the discussion: what is driving the controversy, what is spanking vs. what is abuse, and practical experience vs. “expert” opinion.

If we were going to describe the 1960’s decade as one thing, I would choose the word “anti-authority”. Don’t trust the government, don’t trust your church, and don’t trust your parents. The idea that parents don’t necessarily know best, and that their authority is used to suppress the freedom and rights of their children, became a question in many people’s minds during that time.

The Left is the group that champions that legacy. Where is the left entrenched? Academia and the media, among other places. They oppose parental authority in general, and champion the rights of children. Children are viewed as potential or real victims of parental authority and control. It could be argued that if you wanted to devise a plan to destroy the nuclear family, all you would have to do is follow the principles of Leftist ideology: separate mom/wife from dad/husband via feminism, promote and encourage abortion and divorce, encourage alternative families, and undermine the authority of parents.

As long as parents can use corporal punishment as a discipline tool, the Left sees that as a threat to their agenda, and so they attack it whenever and wherever it pops up. They will cite their studies, and their ideological cousins in the media will eagerly report their biased findings in hopes of swaying, as they see them, an ignorant and misguided public.
I was spanked by my parents, and I spanked my children. I have several degrees, including a doctorate. I am, according to the Left and other errant anti-spanking advocates, one of the ignorant and misguided.

My father used a belt on me many, many times, and on several occasions, that resulted in bruising, and on a handful of occasions it resulted in bleeding from buttocks or legs. My mother used switches from the willow tree out in front of our house. By the beliefs of the Left, my parents committed crimes against me, and if they had been prosecuted under their standards and beliefs, my parents would be serving life sentences. The problem is that I didn’t consider myself an abused child, and I do not believe I was. By punishing me in that way, my parents taught me that authority must be obeyed and respected, and that there are painful consequences to breaking the rules.

That said, I never followed my father’s example precisely. He didn’t communicate and he disciplined out of anger more than love. And yet, my experience is that it still helped me. When I had children, I determined to use spanking only for direct disobedience or disrespect, to only do it out of love with the intent to correct, and to do it in a way that did not make my children fear my hands.

Out of that flowed a set of guidelines for spanking in me and my wife’s home. 1) It was only used in the cases of direct disobedience or disrespect 2) Rules were clear, simple, and few - so that the child knew what would result in a spanking 3) The exact nature of what the violation was explained prior to discipline 4) The spanking was done with a light object (we used wooden spoons with frowny faces drawn on them) 5) We would see if the child was repentant (the goal of the discipline) if so, we would stop; if not, we would re-apply until repentance was expressed/achieved. 6) We would show affection to the child and make it clear that they are loved and accepted. 7) Spanking ceased at age 10. After that age, limitations or withholding of activities, TV, phone, sports, video gaming, and friends were used. Later, the car keys were a tremendous tool.

I would dare say that between the ages of 3 and 6, my son was spanked, on average, multiple times per day, every day. My daughter (less strong-willed, more compliant) was spanked less than 10 times in her life. What both children knew and understood was that we were the parents, we were to be obeyed, and their responsibility was to submit to our authority and do whatever we told them.

Abuse is when children are hit indiscriminately in all kinds of ways, without a clear understanding of the rules, without a clear understanding that they are unconditionally loved, to alleviate the anger of the parent, without communication, and in a way that humiliates the child.

The problem the anti-spankers have is that those of us who grew us getting our hind ends beat for misbehavior know that it did us a lot of good. In addition, we have raised our children, and we all know from experience that sometimes what a child needs is some pain to let them know a certain behavior is unacceptable. In addition, we have seen the non-spankers try to raise their brats. We have seen that they have no answer when little Johnny or Susie gives their parents a raspberry and defies them, and then they do nothing. But we have a solution to make Johnny or Susie understand who is in charge. We know what works and what doesn’t.

I look at Adrian Petersen and applaud his intent to be a real dad and discipline his son. If he came close to, or went over, what I would consider the line between discipline and abuse, I would just want to know that he understands where that line is, and that he has a plan to make sure that he is disciplining, not abusing.

The “experts” rely on studies conducted by leftist academia from sociology, psychology, and child development who find that “spanked” children are violent and prone to every social ill known to man - which we know is nonsense. If that were true me and my children would have long criminal records. We have committed no crimes and are socially well-adjusted people. What those studies reflect is abused children, not children who have been lovingly spanked - but the Leftist agenda must be honored, and so this nonsense gets put out as gospel truth.

Lots of very smart people are anti-spanking advocates. Dr. Phil and Bill O’Reilly among them - which goes to show that even smart people can get sucked into being stupid on occasion.

Spanking is the answer when a small child gives the raspberry and refuses to comply. The non-spanking advocates have no good solution to that scenario. Timeouts, communication, taking away toys/privileges, etc, are all good disciplinary tools to have in your parenting toolbox, and spanking should never be the only disciplinary tool a parent uses, but experience has taught most of us that a good warming of the rear end is the quickest and most effective way to correct a child and establish parental authority. Evidently, that reality is hard for non-spanking advocates to overcome because a large majority of parents outside leftist states continue to spank their children, and view it as effective, necessary, and reasonable.
What worries me is that the Left tends to eventually get their way. I’m 50. By the time I’m gone it wouldn’t surprise me if spanking is criminalized, parental authority is destroyed, and the children will be in charge of themselves. God help us then.
 
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Claims that "The Left" wants to undermine parental authority are just nuts. Most liberals are like most conservatives in that they want to be able to teach their kids to do the right thing without physically hurting them. We all struggle with how best to do that, and different parents come up with different answers.

I'm pretty moderate politically, but I am ambivalent about corporal punishment. Ultimately I think it may be harmful to some kids and maybe necessary for some other kids. Fortunately a single mild swat on the hindquarters was as far as my wife and I ever needed to go with our daughter.

By the way, I received a number of spankings when I was a kid. The same lessons could have been better delivered, in my case, without the spankings.
 
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There's a reason for the instinct to run like the fucking wind when you hear loud noises too, but I don't imagine you'd think it was ok to jump up from dinner, flip the table and run down the street barefoot if a motorbike drives by.
Whatever you want to call it. You don't want to get hit back, then don't hit someone first...plain and fucking simple.
 
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In your opinion. If a person willing strikes another in other than self-defense, that person just forfeited his/her right to protection and the person struck now has the right to respond in kind. You may disagree, but there's a reason for that "instinct".
If it's just slaps or punches on the arm I can take that but when they go for the eyes you have to end it as quickly as possible. I've watched our security/asset protection guy at work end many of struggles with a pop on the nose just hard enough to get someone's attention.
 
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My parents didn't use any foreign objects for my corporal punishment (I say my because my sisters always got different methods), but they had an old-fashioned leather riding crop dad might mock-threaten me with - and all that ever did was make me wonder... why was that thing in their bedroom??
 
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This doesn't belong here, but I couldn't help but think of this image I saw a few years ago after reading through this thread.

where-white-man-go-wrong.jpg
 
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