Multiple shootings at Va Tech

[methomps]

It's very simple to me. I won't be a "victim" if I can help it. I have a gun. I carry a gun. I will use it only to protect my life and property and the life of another person. I don't go around looking for someone to shoot. I hope I never have to use it.
On the other hand I no longer have an "it won't happen to me' hang up. Any of you who want to preach the idea of a gunless world can be the victims, or the family of victims. You can be among those who wail and moan because of the loss of live and deride society for not having a law enforcement person readily at hand to "protect". Just think of all the people associated with the VT incident who I bet now wish that there had been one person around who had the means and compulsion to end that incident earlier at the savings of many lives.
There will not be protection against criminals or the mentally unbalanced. We have to protect ourselves.
I sure as hell intend to protect myself and not be a victim. Good luck to the rest of you.

Regardless of the merits of carrying a gun in general, the calculation is much different on a college campus.

 

[lvbuckeye]

What good would that do? Please, enlighten me.

would he have killed 32 people if someone started shooting back?

 

[Best Buckeye]

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070422/NEWS08/704220317

Buying a handgun: Just how hard is it?
It's a relatively simple transaction in Ohio, more complex in Michigan
Buying a handgun legally in Ohio is a relatively simple process. But step across the state line into Michigan, and the purchase becomes much more complicated.

The question of handgun purchases was thrown into the national spotlight by last week's mass murders at Virginia Tech, and as always, the devil is in the details, or loopholes, of the laws set by the 50 states and the District of Columbia.
Ohio requires buyers to be at least 21 years old and well-behaved. It is among at least 16 states that have no restrictions beyond the basic federal requirements, according to a compendium of state firearms laws by the National Rifle Association's Institute for Legislative Action.

Michigan, on the other hand, requires buyers to obtain a license first and then pay a visit to their local police chief or county sheriff, among other restrictions

 

[Best Buckeye]

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070422/OPINION03/704210311

The ability to defend ourselves


The tragedy at Virginia Tech was preventable. While it appears that the administration and campus police did not act in a timely and responsible manner, the board of trustees is directly responsible for promulgating the carnage.

Virginia is a "right-to-carry" state where 21-year-old law-abiding persons may request a concealed-carry permit. They may carry a hidden, concealed gun in the supermarket, at the ball game, or to the laundromat. Unlike Ohio's concealed-carry law, they may even carry it on a college campus. However, the VT board of trustees voted to prohibit the legal carry of handguns on campus. No teacher, no employee, no student could be armed.

Would potentially armed victims have stopped the first shootings? Unlikely. But it is probable that somewhere along the line the shooter could have been stopped, or at least deterred, before the toll reached 32 innocent victims.

The naysayers will say had a "gunfight" broken out, innocent people may have been inadvertently injured or killed. Maybe so. But there is a very reasonable chance that only five, 10, or 15 innocent people would have been killed. I think that is a reasonable exchange for 32 innocent dead.

When any person or government takes away the ability of the people to defend themselves, that person, organization, or government assumes 100 percent responsibility for every single person's safety at every single minute of every single day. The VT board of trustees assumed this responsibility without the ability to do it. Every anti-gun organization in the country is doing exactly the same thing.

And every state like Ohio whose concealed-carry statutes are burdened with long lists of places where law-abiding citizens cannot carry their guns is doing the same thing.

 

[methomps]

would he have killed 32 people if someone started shooting back?

Yes, but if increased gun presence on campuses lead to 33 people dying over time (accidental shootings, drunken stupidity, etc), then the benefit to society is negated.

 

[Flocka]

Yes, but if increased gun presence on campuses lead to 33 people dying over time (accidental shootings, drunken stupidity, etc), then the benefit to society is negated.

Yes, but we don't see gunfights at the supermarket, or at bars and clubs(between people who legally can carry). It is easy to say that it would be worse in the long run, but all examples prove the opposite.

No one has to carry a gun that doesn't want to. If guns were allowed at the school, it would be the people who felt comfortable possessing them, and knew what they were doing.

 

[Best Buckeye]

Yes, but if increased gun presence on campuses lead to 33 people dying over time (accidental shootings, drunken stupidity, etc), then the benefit to society is negated.

What kind of logic is that?
You can't dictate circumstance. You can chose to be a victim, I will carry my gun and chose to live. Especially since you won't be there to protect me.

 

[methomps]

What kind of logic is that?
You can't dictate circumstance. You can chose to be a victim, I will carry my gun and chose to live. Especially since you won't be there to protect me.

It's called cost-benefit analysis.

Yes, but we don't see gunfights at the supermarket, or at bars and clubs(between people who legally can carry). It is easy to say that it would be worse in the long run, but all examples prove the opposite.

True, but a college campus is not like a supermarket. College campuses are full of recently-liberated young people running around on various combinations of hormones, stress, and drugs. Look at the Penn State incident. Somebody insults a football player's girlfriend in the street and that football player rounds up a dozen of his buddies to go crash a party and beat the crap out of people.

No one has to carry a gun that doesn't want to. If guns were allowed at the school, it would be the people who felt comfortable possessing them, and knew what they were doing.

You would hope so, but that is not necessarily the case.

 

[Best Buckeye]

It's called cost-benefit analysis.quote]
So you are ready to write off the 33 lives lost as less worthy because there MIGHT be 33 other deaths?
I would save the 33 and try to save your 33. Who knows there might not be any deaths. Hows that for cost benefit analyisis?

 

[Mike80]

We can play the ifs and buts game all day long.

Ohio has the CCW as do a couple other states. Most of those states that have it support it.

These kids were herded like cattle by a mass murderer. How about we NOT disparage their memories by turning this into a meaningless pro-gun/anti-gun pro/anti-Concealed Carry debate?

Guns aren't going anywhere.

You can't legislate against psychos. You can only prepare for them.

 

[methomps]

So you are ready to write off the 33 lives lost as less worthy because there MIGHT be 33 other deaths?

1. I was going off 32 lives lost in the massacre, not 33.
2. I never said I was ready for anything. I said the costs had to be considered. People who say "Guns=32 lives said=end of story" are failing to account for the costs. I am saying that we need that discussion.
3. When you say "MIGHT," do you also consider that guns MIGHT not have saved any lives at the massacre?

I would save the 33 and try to save your 33.
Who knows there might not be any deaths.

Meanwhile, in the real world...

 

[OSUsushichic]

You can't legislate against psychos. You can only prepare for them.

These shootings by psychos happen every how many years? If college kids were allowed to carry concealed weapons, they would happen much more often.

My ex used to carry a gun in his car for protection (before I dated him), but he said he learned not to back down in an argument and was much more aggressive because he knew he had a gun for protection. When he got rid of the gun he said he was more level-headed and behaved more maturely. God, I had guns so much. :(

 

[Best Buckeye]

1. I was going off 32 lives lost in the massacre, not 33.
2. I never said I was ready for anything. I said the costs had to be considered. People who say "Guns=32 lives said=end of story" are failing to account for the costs. I am saying that we need that discussion.
3. When you say "MIGHT," do you also consider that guns MIGHT not have saved any lives at the massacre?
Meanwhile, in the real world...

The numbers are moot. the discussion is to wether or not there could havev been lives saved by the presence of one sane person with a gun.
To me there is no discussion. I refuse to be a victim, if you chose to be one that is up to you.
In the real world we speak of saving lives not abandoning them.

 

[Mike80]

These shootings by psychos happen every how many years? If college kids were allowed to carry concealed weapons, they would happen much more often.

link?

My ex used to carry a gun in his car for protection (before I dated him), but he said he learned not to back down in an argument and was much more aggressive because he knew he had a gun for protection. When he got rid of the gun he said he was more level-headed and behaved more maturely. God, I had guns so much. :(

So because your ex was a hothead means everyone is a hothead?

I don't get that.

If anything, the people I know who have their CCW became more level-headed after they had that responsibility given to them.

 

[Flocka]

These shootings by psychos happen every how many years? If college kids were allowed to carry concealed weapons, they would happen much more often.

College kids can carry concealed weapons. Many schools do not allow this on campus, but this does not mean college aged kids cannot carry weapons. Many people legally carry guns that you and I do not know about. Rarely, do you hear about them unjustly using their guns. This is because there is a process to carry a concealed weapons license.