Multiple shootings at Va Tech

[daddyphatsacs]

This story is so tragic that it's almost unfathomable.

 

[Best Buckeye]

agreed. The fact that this doesn't happen more often is what is amazing. How easy is it to take a gun to a major sporting event? To a museum? To a school? Personally, I think it's amazing the country is as safe as it is. But most people who commit crimes or think about committing them don't have a death wish...and that is what saves us.

I agree about how easy the gun movement would be.
Just a side note The amount of ammo needed to murder 33 people would have to number in the hundreds, if not 1,000's of rounds. That much would be harder to hide in the places you name.

 

[scooter1369]

I agree about how easy the gun movement would be.
Just a side note The amount of ammo needed to murder 33 people would have to number in the hundreds, if not 1,000's of rounds. That much would be harder to hide in the places you name.

Actually, it should only take 33 rounds.

 

[buckiprof]

More disturbing than the students (who obviously are traumatized) is the rush to second-guessing by reporters. It's amazing how smart people are in hindsight.

A faster email? The 911 call came in at 7:15. Classes start at 8. No way can word get out to students that fast.

Yes word can get out that quickly as I'll explain below.

The Va. Tech officials administration is bound to be questioned on this, and I think it actually fair and essential to do just that.

They have justified their reaction as being based on reasonable assumptions, key among which is the assumption that the dorm shooter had gone from campus. (Which claim is undercut by the VT President's assertion that the campus police and local authorities were still trying to pursue the suspect when the classroom shootings began). But the point is that that their reactions were not based on firm facts - they were based on what turned out to be incorrect assumptions.

I am absolutely certain of one thing, if anything remotely like the early morning shooting were ever to happen again at VT their reaction, by rule would be very, very different. Think in terms of classes closed down. Think in terms of police at each and every major thoroughfare on what is, sadly, a very open and easily accessed campus. Think in terms of assuming the worst case scenario (shooter still on campus) and acting accordingly.

Which worst case scenario was a distant nightmare in the VT Administration's imagination till today, and, candidly, a distant nightmare in the minds of many including mine.

At my institution I serve on a committee that oversees the large picture of campus. We had a meeting this morning, before this story broke, where our chief of police gave a presentation on NIMS and the fact that we were NIMS compliant.

While I just learned about this NIMS thing, my limited understanding is that NIMS was a direct result of 911. Basically, NYC needed help called out for help many communities responded with people and equipment yet there was a lack of coordination. Lack of coordination also included the language and terminology that different communities may have, including simple things like pieces of equipment. NIMS is a way to help coordinate efforts amongst and between local, state, and federal responses. (I know that we have a poster in law enforcement and maybe they could give more input).

In a weird, surreal, way, one of the topics we discussed at our meeting today was if a gunman came onto campus. (When I got to my office after the meeting, I saw the story on the web and it was a little freaky to say the least.) We are implementing a multi-layer approach to get the word out in such a situation. First, email. Second, a pop-up bulletin sent over the intranet that would pop-up on every users screen. Third, a reverse 911. Here, a voice mail would be sent out and broadcast over the speaker on one's speaker phone. The message in all layers is quite simple: lockdown. (We ended the discussion about getting word to classes already in session as well as students who may be outside, but the point is they are multiple ways to communicate in a short period of time.)

Now my understanding is that all levels of law enforcement, fire departments, etc., have to be NIMS comliant. I am also under the impression that colleges and universities are to be NIMS compliant. (It was stressed by our chief that we are NIMS compliant.) Again, it was kinda weird, but the chief went back to the gunman on campus situation. He said that before 911, a call would go out to local agencies and we may get many units from local communities sending police help to campus. Now, with NIMS in place, there is much more coordination. After the lockdown word is out, a few police may be sent to a certain location to a certain door number. (I hadn't really noticed until today, but all of our doors to every building have number outside on them). In the meantime all other police sent to help would be in a centralized staging area awaiting orders from our chief of police. (He would be considered the "boss".).

Now assuming that VaTech is also NIMS compliant, I believe that police following the suspect is part of the proper protocol (securing locations), but I also believe that "lockdown" should have been part of this as well. (I am not a NIMS expert as today was the first I really heard about it, but this is what I was gathering.) It just seems that the NIMS protocol may not have been followed.

I am sure that the administration at Va Tech will be scrutinized over this. I hope that the victims, and their families, are not forgotten while this happens.

So while this nightmare may have been a distant nightmare scenario in the VT powers-that-be minds, and in many others minds as well, that is exactly what NIMS is meant to prepare for.

 

[Pheasant]

I agree about how easy the gun movement would be.
Just a side note The amount of ammo needed to murder 33 people would have to number in the hundreds, if not 1,000's of rounds. That much would be harder to hide in the places you name.

According to what? By my calculations you could do it with 33 or less rounds. I'm sure it took more than that, but if he was really lining people up and shooting them he wasn't exactly spraying and praying....I'd be surprised if he used 100 rounds.

 

[Best Buckeye]

Actually, it should only take 33 rounds.

yes but not by people who enter a place and just start spraying as this type of person does. These people do not aim they spray and hope.
Also I would think that the victims did not stand still and let themsselves get shot.

 

[Jeffcat]

yes but not by people who enter a place and just start spraying as this type of person does. These people do not aim they spray and hope.
Also I would think that the victims did not stand still and let themsselves get shot.

they could of been lined up and hoped for mercy. when you are already lined up you are not in much of position to do much and you kinda just hope for the best in mercy. sure you might say you would rush him and stop him after a few but people will save their own ass and realize they are standing there and he has a gun therefore they will lose so they just hope for the best even if it is grim. students inside reported 80-100 shots fired and obviously the accuracy is in question but i find it believable according to these reports. he went into confined rooms and opened fire and killed 32 people and shot through some doors so i dont find it unreasonable for somebody at close range with extra ammo to need an absurd amount of shots to kill that many.

 

[WaitingforKickoff]

The reality is that, if a gunman wants to commit mass-murder on a college campus, he's going to do it one way or the other.

Not if you spot him and kill him first.

From the detailed accounts of the description and the circumstances regarding the first two murders, there must have been pretty good eye witnesses to what he looked like and what he was carrying.

Two hours lapsed before the next shootings began while the gunner was on the loose. At the least, the campus should have been under lock down while police scour for suspects. Two hours is a pretty long time to act.

 

[PrincetonBuckeye]

Not if you spot him and kill him first.

From the detailed accounts of the description and the circumstances regarding the first two murders, there must have been pretty good eye witnesses to what he looked like and what he was carrying.

Two hours lapsed before the next shootings began while the gunner was on the loose. At the least, the campus should have been under lock down while police scour for suspects. Two hours is a pretty long time to act.

what is scary is the fact that he took out all the people in the EG building.....most of the students in the ER building are male.....why didn't one of them take him out?

 

[WaitingforKickoff]

It sorta does matter, even if 30+ are already dead. It wasn't a terrorist attack or matter of national security, which in a way is comforting to a lot of people.

While it wasn't a terrorist attack, I don't think anyone will take comfort from the fact that such a devastating attack can be carried out by one individual without much in the way of logistical support from outside groups.

 

[WaitingforKickoff]

what is scary is the fact that he took out all the people in the EG building.....most of the students in the ER building are male.....why didn't one of them take him out?

Maybe it's because they are engineers? Heck if I know.

Perhaps most of them weren't so sharp from getting up so early for classes. And the last thing they expected was some maniac Asian dude acting out counter strike for real.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

While it wasn't a terrorist attack, I don't think anyone will take comfort from the fact that such a devastating attack can be carried out by one individual without much in the way of logistical support from outside groups.

Not to insult you or the lives of those taken, but I don't comprehend how any thinking person could be surprised at how "easy" an event such as this is to occur. It's happened at high schools... and even middle schools, if I'm not mistaken.

On your response to the word "comfort" you're really just framing the issue... I don't think Sushi meant it in a "whew, we're all OK" kind of way, just that after 9/11 when something like this occurs, people wonder... was this a terrorist? Personally, that thought doesn't really ever go through my mind (the last time it did was when some engine fell off a plane over NYC not long after 9/11). When I hear about school shootings I tend to think about psychotic nut jobs, poor parenting (sometimes) and the availability of weapons in this country.

 

[Thump]

You can't prevent "crazy."

 

[WaitingforKickoff]

Not to insult you or the lives of those taken, but I don't comprehend how any thinking person could be surprised at how "easy" an event such as this is to occur. It's happened at high schools... and even middle schools, if I'm not mistaken.

You are right, this stuff can happen anywhere. The gunman could have waited to attack the classes first and there's very little anyone can do about that. It's regretful however that no one "capitalized" the fact that he had struck before attacking the classes and there were witnesses that provided a pretty good physical description of him after the first attack.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

You are right, this stuff can happen anywhere. The gunman could have waited to attack the classes first and there's very little anyone can do about that. It's regretful however that no one "capitalized" the fact that he had struck before attacking the classes and there were witnesses that provided a pretty good physical description of him after the first attack.

Yeah, but I think the reality of it is the people looking for him never considered he'd go on this kind a rampage... most people, I would think, instead go in to hiding.

I don't know how big VT's campus is, or how many students, etc. but my guess is - it being a college in session - it's pretty easy for one guy to blend in... Not sure that it's reasonable to think the cops were at all likely to have found him before he went bat-shit crazy.