Modern Faiths

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Yes, Jwins.. my son (or daughter) will ALWAYS be my son (or daughter). S/He will ALWAYS have a home in my house. This cannot change. When I say unconditional love, I don't put conditions on it.

 

[jwinslow]

Yes, Jwins.. my son (or daughter) will ALWAYS be my son (or daughter). S/He will ALWAYS have a home in my house. This cannot change. When I say unconditional love, I don't put conditions on it.

What about when they're 18? 21? 25?

I'm not sure I could ever kick my child out of my house... but I also couldn't act like nothing happened.

What if the actions are hurting you or your family personally? Just welcome them in like nothing happened?

 

[DontHateOState]

What I don't understand is the point of a middle man to G-d and I don't see the point in someone else dying for my sins when I take responsibility for my own sins my own self.

Sacrifice has always been a part of Judeo-Christian faith. Animal sacrifice was prevalent in the Old Testament, but that was replaced with Jesus dying for sins in the New Testament.

Judaism replaced it with prayer. Hosea 14:3 reads, "Take with you words, and turn to the Lord. Say to Him, forgive all iniquity and receive us graciously, so we will offer the words of our lips instead of calves."

I personally believe Christianity looks at the human condition as powerless to do anything but fail.

You will find that true with every major religion today. I'm not using the literal definition of powerless, btw. I'm using the intention of what you stated. Without help or guidance, the human condition will fail to find God. That is true for every religion.

 

[DontHateOState]

Let me try another direction. I'm more going for whether they want to be with him and show it then whether I can forgive my children. I agree completely with the unconditional love line, but 1 person doesn't make a relationship.
If they were going around murdering, raping and stealing from severely handicapped people (trying to come up with examples that would compare to how our sins are in the presence of G-d), would you continue to welcome them into your home? If they lived the opposite of how you raised them, would you just welcome into the house with no consequences?

If you don't mind jwins, I believe I know what you are getting at and can expound upon it.

Have you ever punished your kids before you allowed them something? Has that punishment ever not worked?

Have you ever tried a different tactic that then did work? Have you ever found that this tactic brought your kids closer to you, and allowed a deeper understanding for the expectations of their behavior?

 

[muffler dragon]

Impossible to do. Hell is another great example of paganism being combined. There is no confirmed after life..

Agreed.

One thing that most people don't think about with Jesus and the promised Messiah..

Virgin birth eliminates Jesus.

Follow?[/quote]

Yup.

 

[muffler dragon]

I addressed this in part initially and then in my response. The Bible says we've all sinned and to say you havent is a sin. Therefor, all have sinned.

Actually, your Christian testament says it, but the Jewish Bible does not to the best of my knowledge. Do you know of a passage in the Jewish Bible that alludes to or agrees with your premise?

We either admit it through a sin we have committed or deny and sin by denial. Which is why I went on about the 'self-fulfilling' prophecy.

I must admit that this is a consideration that I have never run into before. Thus, it was outside my realm before and it is now still.

Death to me is physical. Once you die, it's heaven or hell.

Then Jesus is irrelevant, correct? Obviously, he doesn't save you from a physical death.

Gehenna or Valley of Hinnom. In the quick research I was able to find it appears as this is a literal place for the Jews.

That is true. But the part you're missing is that Gehenna is not considered eternal. There is a cleansing period after death. After which, the soul returns to G-d.

As stated a few paragraphs up. You die you go to heaven or hell. Next step for me now is, you sin, you get put to death without repentance, you go to hell. But to be fair, I had no thought about it to deep before.

Okay.

This in its context to me is not a way of saying, your worldly riches will not appease God. You cannot impress or buy your way in to heaven.

:) Well, considering the Christian sense of heaven is absent from the Jewish understanding of this text, I would have to suggest that you look at it differently.

I may have answered regarding the false idol, but the idea still applies. The Jews needed a savior because they were not following the way of God; overly simple way of putting it. So during Jesus' ministry his teachings were to have the Jews follow in the appropriate direction. So if there are 'new' teachings or ways of thinking it would be based around that idea. So prior to Jesus, sin - die - go to hell. That was an impossibility, hence our Savior was sent.

Would you mind providing Scriptural support from the Jewish Bible for: "The Jews needed a savior because they were not following the way of God"?

Jesus is God. So He is not a mediator.

Do you not believe that the death on the cross was a matter of vicarious atonement for humanity?

vicarious meaning:

vicarious - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

1 a: serving instead of someone or something else b: that has been delegated <vicarious authority>
2: performed or suffered by one person as a substitute for another or to the benefit or advantage of another : substitutionary <a vicarious sacrifice>

If you believe that the death on the cross was a vicarious atonement; then you believe that Jesus operates as your mediator (regardless of divinity or not).

There may be other ways of doing things and becoming a better person. But I seek to serve God not the idols of humans.

I'm not sure what you mean when I'm simply telling you that I think most people are inately "good".

I've got to tell you muffler and bkb; this is fun. You are challenging me to grow in my faith and I must say it is working. At the end of the day we may not agree on our way to salvation, but I wouldnt have guessed I would learn as much from a Buckeye website talking to two non-believers. Thank you.

You're welcome.

 

[muffler dragon]

Just a correction... I think I can speak for Muffler here.... we both ARE believers... we're just not Christians.

But, point taken none-the-less.

Feel free to speak on yours, I mean mine, I mean ours behalf...

You are correct.

 

[muffler dragon]

Sacrifice has always been a part of Judeo-Christian faith. Animal sacrifice was prevalent in the Old Testament, but that was replaced with Jesus dying for sins in the New Testament.

I would presume you are speaking metaphorically. As there is no way that the crucifixion remotely mirrors an animal sacrifice from Leviticus. Furthermore, considering that human sacrifice is an abomination in the Jewish Bible, it would have to be something not even tangentially related.

Judaism replaced it with prayer. Hosea 14:3 reads, "Take with you words, and turn to the Lord. Say to Him, forgive all iniquity and receive us graciously, so we will offer the words of our lips instead of calves."

This is actually incorrect.

Jews are not permitted to sacrifice anywhere else besides the Temple. Thus, when the Temple is not standing, the other means of repentance are given prominence; however they do not replace sacrifices. There are three main ways of receiving repentance for sins: repentance, prayer and good works. Furthermore, the sacrifices are an outward expression of an inward repentant heart condition. Couple this with the fact that the sacrifices were the means to sustenance for the Levitical priesthood, and you can see beyond just the act.

You will find that true with every major religion today. I'm not using the literal definition of powerless, btw. I'm using the intention of what you stated. Without help or guidance, the human condition will fail to find God. That is true for every religion.

I disagree. Judaism does not look at the human condition in that way at all.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

What about when they're 18? 21? 25?

I'm not sure I could ever kick my child out of my house... but I also couldn't act like nothing happened.

What if the actions are hurting you or your family personally? Just welcome them in like nothing happened?

Have I not been clear? Unconditional. Period.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

If you don't mind jwins, I believe I know what you are getting at and can expound upon it.

Have you ever punished your kids before you allowed them something? Has that punishment ever not worked?

Have you ever tried a different tactic that then did work? Have you ever found that this tactic brought your kids closer to you, and allowed a deeper understanding for the expectations of their behavior?

"Go to your room"

"Eternal damnation!"

It's almost exactly the same thing......

 

[fanaticbuckeye]

Actually, your Christian testament says it, but the Jewish Bible does not to the best of my knowledge. Do you know of a passage in the Jewish Bible that alludes to or agrees with your premise?

No but I can research it. Why must I only look in the Old Testament?

Then Jesus is irrelevant, correct? Obviously, he doesn't save you from a physical death.

Not at all. All are going to die (save divine intervention). Jesus provides the path to Heaven. Without Him, all fall short of God's (the Father) grace, before or without Jesus, destination was Hell. Through God's (the Son) sacrifice and acceptance of Him, we can go to heaven.

That is true. But the part you're missing is that Gehenna is not considered eternal. There is a cleansing period after death. After which, the soul returns to G-d.

Admittedly I had only researched 15 minutes yesterday, so I only went surface deep on the Gehenna concept. So, there is no eternal Hell for Jews? Where is the consequence for not living by the Jewish God's rules?

:) Well, considering the Christian sense of heaven is absent from the Jewish understanding of this text, I would have to suggest that you look at it differently.

Once again, not utilizing the New/Christian testament is falling woefully short of salvation. [2 year olds response]So why should I?[/2 year olds response]

Would you mind providing Scriptural support from the Jewish Bible for: "The Jews needed a savior because they were not following the way of God"?

Not sure I could, but I can from the New/Christian testament.

Do you not believe that the death on the cross was a matter of vicarious atonement for humanity?

vicarious meaning:

vicarious - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

1 a: serving instead of someone or something else b: that has been delegated <vicarious authority>
2: performed or suffered by one person as a substitute for another or to the benefit or advantage of another : substitutionary <a vicarious sacrifice>

If you believe that the death on the cross was a vicarious atonement; then you believe that Jesus operates as your mediator (regardless of divinity or not).

Jesus is 1 in the Holy Trinity. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. An act of Jesus is an act of God in flesh form. So yes it may be vicarious atonement. But Jesus is God.

I'm not sure what you mean when I'm simply telling you that I think most people are inately "good."

My point is; being innately good is not good enough for God. Therefor if humans live there life with the philosophy of "I am good enough" without Jesus, they shall fall short of eternity in Heaven. No matter how 'good' of a live they lived, as there is one road to salvation. Which was my comment of, I try to live my life for God.

 

[muffler dragon]

No but I can research it. Why must I only look in the Old Testament?

Because the standard that you keep addressing for a reference as to what is sin and what isn't is found in the Mosaic Law (i.e. the Torah). IF your premise is correct; then wouldn't you think that it would have been known from the dispensation of the Torah?

To me, it would be quite unjust and unreasonable of a god to give instructions to his underlings, and then change the expectations or understanding centuries after the fact. Would you not agree?

Not at all. All are going to die (save divine intervention). Jesus provides the path to Heaven. Without Him, all fall short of God's (the Father) grace, before or without Jesus, destination was Hell. Through God's (the Son) sacrifice and acceptance of Him, we can go to heaven.

1) But if one's debt is paid at their death; then Jesus is indeed irrelevant. This once again is an addition to the initial understanding given to Jews. Why the change so many centuries later?
2) And what of people who died before Jesus' death that would grant them access to Heaven?

Admittedly I had only researched 15 minutes yesterday, so I only went surface deep on the Gehenna concept. So, there is no eternal Hell for Jews? Where is the consequence for not living by the Jewish God's rules?

The consequences are in the "here and now". Doesn't it seem a little extreme to expect an eternal consequence for a temporal existence?

Once again, not utilizing the New/Christian testament is falling woefully short of salvation. [2 year olds response]So why should I?[/2 year olds response]

The verse I showed you was Psalm 45:8. That's in the Jewish Bible; not the Christian testament. Hence, the suggestion for perspective change.

Not sure I could, but I can from the New/Christian testament.

Then I'm afraid you don't have an argument. The Jewish Bible is more than just a theological treatise. It's THE history of the Jews. IF the Jews NEEDED a savior as your claim; THEN wouldn't you expect to find the substantiation within THE HISTORY of the JEWS? Why rely on a third party interpretation of events when you have primary source material at your fingertips?

Jesus is 1 in the Holy Trinity. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. An act of Jesus is an act of God in flesh form. So yes it may be vicarious atonement. But Jesus is God.

Forgive me for being blunt, but this is not a "may be" situation. It's "yes" or "no". Can you answer with either?

My point is; being innately good is not good enough for God.

Based on what? A text (Christian testament) that is divorced from the very foundation (the Jewish Bible) it is supposedly based upon?

Therefor if humans live there life with the philosophy of "I am good enough" without Jesus, they shall fall short of eternity in Heaven. No matter how 'good' of a live they lived, as there is one road to salvation. Which was my comment of, I try to live my life for God.

How do you receive the instruction in order to "live your life for God"?

 

[jwinslow]

Have I not been clear? Unconditional. Period.

So you just keep letting them back in and act like nothing happened? Or are there consequences for misbehaving against your family and others?

 

[Bleed S & G]

No but I can research it. Why must I only look in the Old Testament?

Because this is the supposed foundation of Christianity. Certainly, truths of this magnitude would have been written down by Moses for the followers.

Without Him, all fall short of God's (the Father) grace, before or without Jesus, destination was Hell.

As I don't believe in hell, I'll play "devils" advocate..

If Jesus died for mans sins - why the need for reptenance? You're forgiven anyways.

What about those who reject Jesus as God, but live his message of love?

What about the man in the rain forest, whos never heard the name of Jesus?

Sounds like a harsh god, certainly not one who hang and with his last breath ask for forgiveness for those who nailed him to the tree.

Follow?

Jesus is 1 in the Holy Trinity. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. An act of Jesus is an act of God in flesh form. So yes it may be vicarious atonement. But Jesus is God.

The best way I ever heard the trinity taught was back at Bishop Watterson High School..

"It's like H2O.. it can be ice, gas, or water - but it's the same element"

I liked that alot at the time.

Jesus is not God.

Jesus dosen't fit the requirements - plain and simple. Jesus never meant to have his message preverted to claim him as God.

 

[Bleed S & G]

If they were going around murdering, raping and stealing from severely handicapped people (trying to come up with examples that would compare to how our sins are in the presence of G-d), would you continue to welcome them into your home? If they lived the opposite of how you raised them, would you just welcome into the house with no consequences?

Ok, I see where your thoughts are at here..

I guess - you've got to change your ideas from those of "socitey" to the teachings of "scripture".. by that I mean..

There is no such thing as heaven. There is no such thing as hell.

This is a pagan thought that has it foundation in controling the masses. For example: "If you don't do this, you'll burn in hell. If you pay me money, you'll get into heaven."

There is no such thing as heaven & hell.. this is paradise. Remember Adam & Eve? It's your own sins that keep you from nirvana on this planet. Living with love, Jesus' teachings essentially, will bring you back into paradise.

Once you get past the concept of heaven & hell - a lot of other teachings will fall into place.

Sacrifice has always been a part of Judeo-Christian faith. Animal sacrifice was prevalent in the Old Testament, but that was replaced with Jesus dying for sins in the New Testament.

This is the Christian/Cathlioc teaching..

Jesus came, died for your sins, and as a result we have thrown out every law from God/Moses and will do things our own way. We will come up with our traditions, sacraments, and theology that we came up with a council full of corrupt men.

We will then become the most awesome and powerful force this world has ever known, because we have you (the common man) by the balls.

We control your fear - we control the unknown. Do this, and you'll live forever. Do that, and you'll burn forever.

You will find that true with every major religion today. I'm not using the literal definition of powerless, btw. I'm using the intention of what you stated. Without help or guidance, the human condition will fail to find God. That is true for every religion.

I'm fairly certain that Islam dosen't practice this thinking - and neither does Judaism.

"Orginal sin" dosen't exsit in text.. it's been taught over so many years in the Christian faith (very similar to heaven & hell) that its accepted as fact.

You know whats worse than not having guidance of the spirtual nature? Letting the blind lead the blind. The foundation of Modern Christianity, so far as I'm concerned at this point in my research, is corrupt. Again, and not a word to use lightly, the whore.