Modern Faiths

[muffler dragon]

"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." [Rom. 3:23]

I asked this above, but I'll re-address differently here.

I looked up this passage, and I was rather surprised that there is no cross reference to anything of this sort in the Jewish Bible. Does that surprise you?

"Whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."[James. 2:10]

Question: have you ever met a person who was Jewish that had the following characteristics:

1) was a hemaphrodite? (having both female and male organs)
2) was a priest?
3) owned land?

And this is a serious question. I would like to know if you've ever heard of one Jew encompassing all three characteristics.

I have sinned. I know all have sinned because, 1 the Bible says so and 2 because the list of sins is so large that all humans have committed a sin of some kind. One sin is equal to having committed all sins.

I understand beforehand that you spoke of not being a "skilled enough writer". I must ask, "have you ever evaluated these points you make that you hear from a pulpit"?

I want to reconcile with God before death.

Would you be interested in hearing about a very direct way?

To be fair and hopefully I dont sound childish; but I believe I have a relationship with God because of Jesus Christ. I am not saying you do or do not have a relationship with God. Merely, stating my faith and belief system and am being as non-judgemental of you as possible.

A friend shared a story with me some time ago. She was trying to voice her experience to a family member. She said, "If one holds wax paper in front of a light bulb (that is on), you can still see light. Correct?". The person said, "Yes". My friend responded, "And what happens if you remove the wax paper?" The other person said, "You still see light, but differently".

This is synonymous with my walk with G-d. For over 20 years, I saw G-d through that wax paper (Jesus). Now, I see G-d differently since the wax paper is removed.

Just something to think about.

Introspectively, I am weak minded, boastful, lustful and have questioned God. I have not always accepted Jesus, but I do now. My merits to believe and know now what I believe is the truth comes from my understanding of the Bible (little that I do have) and that God desperately want a relationship with all of us.

I'd like to call, "Bullshit" on the self-deprecation. In my experience, that is nothing more than a mechanism for use by those that we decide to submit to. You are a fully functioning human being who was given a brain for use. You were also given free will in order to experience this thing we call, "life". Sure, mistakes can be made; however, it's the journey that makes us who we are.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

It didnt fix a human condition, it provide a 'bridge' to salvation

OK, but my question is this: Why do we need a bridge at all. What prevents G-d from simply saying "they get salvation?" Again, why the dramatics of taking on human form and all that. I mean, I'm no god, but if I want to offer my kids forgiveness, I just decide to do so... no theatrics.

Once again, BKB, I am simply stating my belief system. I am not trying to convince you that I am right and you are wrong. Obviously, I have my belief system that makes me believe I have found the way to God through Christ and without it I wouldnt have this relationship.

I may be overly sensitive to not judging others, but I have seen too many times debates turn to arguments between unqualified debaters (I am the unqualified one here, not you) further solidify ones disbelief in the other sides argument because of ignorance or an over simplified "...just because" argument. I jumped in here to respond respectfully to your questions.

No worries. I'm not trying to judge you either, I just enjoy the discussion. I certainly do not intend to make light of your faith, even if I would debate its particulars with you. To be clear, it's not my intention to convince you that you're chasing ghosts, but instead for me to hear another opinion on why I should change my mind - or to understand where people are coming from on the issue(s).

I disagree with your opinion (as should be obvious), but do not take that as me having some sort of contempt for you or it.

 

[Best Buckeye]

OK, but my question is this: Why do we need a bridge at all. .

Eve

 

[fanaticbuckeye]

I apologize in advance, but if at any point you feel like you're arguing with a 2 year old, know I am trying...

I must ask: how would you go about proving this?

What constitutes a sin is probably going to be the next question. Impure thoughts, actions, coveting, stealing, deceit, etc.

As well as 1 John 1:8 - 'If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us"

So then the argument becomes, well that is self fulfilling prophecy. So I did not and will not say I know that you have sinned. That is not my place. I know I have.

And that is what the vast majority of the world's inhabitants through out time have done. Once death comes upon us, our "debt" is paid. Granted, many are forgiven of their sins previously through repentance.

I must ask: since Elijah didn't die, how do you view him?

I am not sure I follow here?

But why is this important? You just said above that "all sinners must pay for their sins with death". Furthermore, from what do we need salvation?

Hell

This again seems irrelevant considering your "death" statement above, no?

No, perhaps I didnt explain myself well enough. Punishment for sin is death. Jesus was sacrificed for my sin so that I need not die. My debt is paid through Him.

Question: do you see a foundation to this belief in the Jewish Bible?

Are you referring to the Old Testament? If so, I must admit, no. Merely because I have not studied it enough. But my pastor says so... See I a 2 year old.

Indeed. Christianity is not a universalistic religioin.

Agreed, which is why I am trying very hard to state my beliefs, which insinuate that all that dont believe what I believe are wrong, carefully.

Would you be interested in reading a refutation based on the first section of your Bible (aka the Jewish Bible portion)?

Sure I would.

 

[fanaticbuckeye]

I asked this above, but I'll re-address differently here.

I looked up this passage, and I was rather surprised that there is no cross reference to anything of this sort in the Jewish Bible. Does that surprise you?

Not really, but I am ill-equipped to be a scholarly debater either. Also, wasnt there a problem with Jews worshiping false gods/idols? If there is a percentage of truth in that, it is not surprising that Jesus would re-iterate/establish this point for the kingdom of God during his ministries.

Question: have you ever met a person who was Jewish that had the following characteristics:

1) was a hemaphrodite? (having both female and male organs)
2) was a priest?
3) owned land?

And this is a serious question. I would like to know if you've ever heard of one Jew encompassing all three characteristics.

Not to my knowledge. Same can be said about Muslims, Atheists, Gnostics and Oklahomans. Not sure I know a hermaphrodite at all? Other than one episode of House where this hot model girl was actually a boy and she had sex with her dad...I digress.

I understand beforehand that you spoke of not being a "skilled enough writer". I must ask, "have you ever evaluated these points you make that you hear from a pulpit"?

Is this question do I ever challenge my teachers? Yes I do. My challenges have always been answered. I consider myself a logical mind and have challenges wrapping my brain around certain things, but I am also only 2 years into my quest that is continually growing.

Would you be interested in hearing about a very direct way?

Once again, sure I would. Learning is good.

A friend shared a story with me some time ago. She was trying to voice her experience to a family member. She said, "If one holds wax paper in front of a light bulb (that is on), you can still see light. Correct?". The person said, "Yes". My friend responded, "And what happens if you remove the wax paper?" The other person said, "You still see light, but differently".

This is synonymous with my walk with G-d. For over 20 years, I saw G-d through that wax paper (Jesus). Now, I see G-d differently since the wax paper is removed.

Just something to think about.

I appreciate the point, but I dont see that as direct correlation here. Jesus is not a guy standing in the way or filtering our vision of God. He is God the Son, God in the flesh. So talking to Jesus, is talking to God.

I'd like to call, "Bullshit" on the self-deprecation. In my experience, that is nothing more than a mechanism for use by those that we decide to submit to. You are a fully functioning human being who was given a brain for use. You were also given free will in order to experience this thing we call, "life". Sure, mistakes can be made; however, it's the journey that makes us who we are.

You can't call BS on MY self deprecation. To insinuate that is a mechanism of Big Brother or God used to control me by fear is disingenous to me. It is my moral compass that I am learning from the Heavenly teacher. I have chosen to submit my life so that Jesus may live in me. Yes I have free will as do others that dont believe, my moral compass is to have pure thoughts and live by his standards.

 

[fanaticbuckeye]

OK, but my question is this: Why do we need a bridge at all. What prevents G-d from simply saying "they get salvation?" Again, why the dramatics of taking on human form and all that. I mean, I'm no god, but if I want to offer my kids forgiveness, I just decide to do so... no theatrics.

Do I get a tag-team partner here? Whats up, anybody?


We fall short of God due to our sins. Mankind was moving further away from God so he sent us a savior (does it sound like I am reading a pamphlet right now?). So in essence, God is saying, you get salvation through my Son, God in the flesh, Jesus.

No worries. I'm not trying to judge you either, I just enjoy the discussion. I certainly do not intend to make light of your faith, even if I would debate its particulars with you. To be clear, it's not my intention to convince you that you're chasing ghosts, but instead for me to hear another opinion on why I should change my mind - or to understand where people are coming from on the issue(s).

I disagree with your opinion (as should be obvious), but do not take that as me having some sort of contempt for you or it.

I didnt take your point that way, because I have read your posts. I dont post on here enough for you to know my stance or where I am coming from, that is why I felt it necessary to state it.

 

[muffler dragon]

I apologize in advance, but if at any point you feel like you're arguing with a 2 year old, know I am trying...

No worries.

What constitutes a sin is probably going to be the next question. Impure thoughts, actions, coveting, stealing, deceit, etc.

As well as 1 John 1:8 - 'If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us"

So then the argument becomes, well that is self fulfilling prophecy. So I did not and will not say I know that you have sinned. That is not my place. I know I have.

I'm sorry but this doesn't address my actual interest. To the point: can you prove that all human beings have sinned? And if so, how do you prove it?

I am not sure I follow here?

Physical death comes about from sin. Thus, since Elijah did not die, do you believe that he sinned at some point in his life?

Hell

Do you believe you can substantiate the existence of an eternal hell just using the Jewish Bible?

No, perhaps I didnt explain myself well enough. Punishment for sin is death. Jesus was sacrificed for my sin so that I need not die. My debt is paid through Him.

Then this is a divergence. You are talking about a metaphysical/spiritual death; whereas, I'm talking about physical death. When someone dies, IMO, all their "debts" are paid. Am I correct in this understanding?

Are you referring to the Old Testament? If so, I must admit, no. Merely because I have not studied it enough. But my pastor says so... See I a 2 year old.

For brevity, yes, it's just about equivalent to call the Jewish Bible your OT. However, I usually distinguish this way: Jewish Bible for the Jewish portion of your Bible, and the Christian testament instead of "new". It may sound pedantic, but my reasoning is more than a few simple points.

Sure I would.

I'll start with one verse first just to make sure that you're following:

Psalm 49
8. -a brother cannot redeem a man, he cannot give his ransom to God.

Not really, but I am ill-equipped to be a scholarly debater either. Also, wasnt there a problem with Jews worshiping false gods/idols? If there is a percentage of truth in that, it is not surprising that Jesus would re-iterate/establish this point for the kingdom of God during his ministries.

I'm not following. I asked if you were surpised by there not being a cross reference in the Jewish Bible for Paul's statement in Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

Not to my knowledge. Same can be said about Muslims, Atheists, Gnostics and Oklahomans. Not sure I know a hermaphrodite at all? Other than one episode of House where this hot model girl was actually a boy and she had sex with her dad...I digress.

I didn't figure that you'd know anyone who fit all those characteristics, because said individual doesn't exist. Now, to why I asked:

You wrote the following verse:

Whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."[James. 2:10]

The premise that you are attempting to show is that someone must observe all of the Law (or what I refer to as "Torah") in a 100% perfect fashion. The problem with this premise via the verse by James is that this is simply not possible. However, it's "impossibleness" has NOTHING to do with sin. It has to do with gender, offices, and other things. The Torah and the 613 commandments cover many different things. It talks about what a priest is supposed to do, what a land owner is supposed to do, what a husband is supposed to do, what a woman is supposed to do during menstruation, etc. No one person (NOT EVEN JESUS) can perform every "point" of the Torah. Thus, the verse by James is a non sequitur.

Is this question do I ever challenge my teachers? Yes I do. My challenges have always been answered. I consider myself a logical mind and have challenges wrapping my brain around certain things, but I am also only 2 years into my quest that is continually growing.

Understood and appreciated.

Once again, sure I would. Learning is good.

Repentence has been established since before the giving of the Torah on Sinai as a situation between man and G-d. No person can nor need operate on behalf of another as a mediator. This is a foundational difference between Judaism and Christianity.

I appreciate the point, but I dont see that as direct correlation here. Jesus is not a guy standing in the way or filtering our vision of God. He is God the Son, God in the flesh. So talking to Jesus, is talking to God.

That's the way it IS for you. It's the way it WAS for me for many years. My story is about perspective and understanding. For me, it helped with some issues I was considering.

You can't call BS on MY self deprecation. To insinuate that is a mechanism of Big Brother or God used to control me by fear is disingenous to me. It is my moral compass that I am learning from the Heavenly teacher. I have chosen to submit my life so that Jesus may live in me. Yes I have free will as do others that dont believe, my moral compass is to have pure thoughts and live by his standards.

My point was that while you may think you're a "steaming pile of cow dung", there are other ways of achieving the very things you are trying to do. You don't have to be horrible in order to exalt G-d.

 

[Bleed S & G]

Do you believe you can substantiate the existence of an eternal hell just using the Jewish Bible?

Impossible to do. Hell is another great example of paganism being combined. There is no confirmed after life.. just the comfort of believing in one is more convient. Kind of like those who believe in the "rapture" with zero basis in scripture.

Of course they are.

There is no middle ground. If Jesus of Nazareth was merely a man, born of natural processes, then His death could not atone for the sins of others. And that is the foundation of Christianity.

Why does his death need to atone for others? What is the basis in any scripture for this needing to happen? This was never a requirment of the Messiah..

These are the key criteria for the JEWISH Messiah. Now, what you've written as being crucial MAY be criteria for your Messiah; but it's not the one awaited for millenia.

One thing that most people don't think about with Jesus and the promised Messiah..

Virgin birth eliminates Jesus.

The annoited one must be from the line of King David..

Matthew details the genaology of "Christ".. King David's blood line runs through Joesph, not Mary.

If Jesus was born through a virgin, he has no blood of King David in him.. meaning he is not a canidate for the Messiah if he was born through the virgin Mary.

Follow?

The answer to that is clear; if Jesus was not born of a virgin, and if He did not perform miracles then He was just another man. Therefore, His death does not bring about the forgiveness of sins. Ergo, Christianity is based upon a false prophet.

No, a false phrophet is one who speaks for the wrong god. Paul is a false prophet.. Jesus was not.

I call "BS" on being just another man.. was Moses just another man? No, he was selected by God for a mission.. just as Abraham, Mohammad, Jesus, etc.

No where in any scripture, that I'm aware of, is the Messiah dieing for the salvation of the world. I wouldn't be surprised to find such beliefs in pagan cultures pre-dating Jesus.

OK, but my question is this: Why do we need a bridge at all. What prevents G-d from simply saying "they get salvation?"

Exactly. You don't need the bridge.

I understand the idea of sacrifices and blood to atone.. however, saying God took on the form of man and died for our sins seems almost blasphemous. God is "I AM", all powerful, and manifested the universe.

This God need not take on the flesh of man. Maybe some other dieties need to.. not the God I submit to.

No worries. I'm not trying to judge you either, I just enjoy the discussion. I certainly do not intend to make light of your faith, even if I would debate its particulars with you. To be clear, it's not my intention to convince you that you're chasing ghosts, but instead for me to hear another opinion on why I should change my mind - or to understand where people are coming from on the issue(s).

Perfect. Agreed 100% BKB.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

We fall short of God due to our sins. Mankind was moving further away from God so he sent us a savior (does it sound like I am reading a pamphlet right now?). So in essence, God is saying, you get salvation through my Son, God in the flesh, Jesus.

Sure.... but... why did G-d have to go thru all that when he could have just decided to give salvation? Again, he's G-d, all powerful, right?

I don't mean to belabor the point, I've just never had this question answered from the Christian perspective and in a way that makes sense to me as being a reasonable thing ... or a necessary thing.. for G-d to have done in the first place.

 

[jwinslow]

I don't mean to belabor the point, I've just never had this question answered from the Christian perspective and in a way that makes sense to me as being a reasonable thing ... or a necessary thing.. for G-d to have done in the first place.

Do you generally forgive people who don't want it and mock the very idea of it?

Moreso, do you want to spend long periods of time with these people?

 

[Bleed S & G]

Do you generally forgive people who don't want it and mock the very idea of it?

Moreso, do you want to spend long periods of time with these people?

Would you forgive your child, if they didn't want it?

Of course you would.

I think that the soul is the only fair judge. If one can't forgive themselves, the won't be forgiven. Only ones conscious can be a fair and true judge.

Again, back to the notion that God lives within, not outside of the body.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Do you generally forgive people who don't want it and mock the very idea of it?

Moreso, do you want to spend long periods of time with these people?

Daily. They're called kids.... especially the teen aged ones. Surely if I can do it, G-d is capable. And, yes, I like spending long periods of time with them... and the more time goes on, the more I want the time back.

Edit: As I just heard on a trailer for a movie my son's getting ready to watch - A parent says to his child "There's nothing you could do that would change my love for you." And that quote hits the nail on the head.... Unconditional love.... If I'm capable of it, I figure G-d is too.

 

[fanaticbuckeye]

I'm sorry but this doesn't address my actual interest. To the point: can you prove that all human beings have sinned? And if so, how do you prove it?

I addressed this in part initially and then in my response. The Bible says we've all sinned and to say you havent is a sin. Therefor, all have sinned. We either admit it through a sin we have committed or deny and sin by denial. Which is why I went on about the 'self-fulfilling' prophecy.

Physical death comes about from sin. Thus, since Elijah did not die, do you believe that he sinned at some point in his life?

Death to me is physical. Once you die, it's heaven or hell.

Do you believe you can substantiate the existence of an eternal hell just using the Jewish Bible?

Gehenna or Valley of Hinnom. In the quick research I was able to find it appears as this is a literal place for the Jews.

Then this is a divergence. You are talking about a metaphysical/spiritual death; whereas, I'm talking about physical death. When someone dies, IMO, all their "debts" are paid. Am I correct in this understanding?

As stated a few paragraphs up. You die you go to heaven or hell. Next step for me now is, you sin, you get put to death without repentance, you go to hell. But to be fair, I had no thought about it to deep before.
I'll start with one verse first just to make sure that you're following:

Psalm 49
8. -a brother cannot redeem a man, he cannot give his ransom to God.

This in its context to me is not a way of saying, your worldly riches will not appease God. You cannot impress or buy your way in to heaven.

I'm not following. I asked if you were surpised by there not being a cross reference in the Jewish Bible for Paul's statement in Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

I may have answered regarding the false idol, but the idea still applies. The Jews needed a savior because they were not following the way of God; overly simple way of putting it. So during Jesus' ministry his teachings were to have the Jews follow in the appropriate direction. So if there are 'new' teachings or ways of thinking it would be based around that idea. So prior to Jesus, sin - die - go to hell. That was an impossibility, hence our Savior was sent.

Repentence has been established since before the giving of the Torah on Sinai as a situation between man and G-d. No person can nor need operate on behalf of another as a mediator. This is a foundational difference between Judaism and Christianity.

Jesus is God. So He is not a mediator.

My point was that while you may think you're a "steaming pile of cow dung", there are other ways of achieving the very things you are trying to do. You don't have to be horrible in order to exalt G-d.

There may be other ways of doing things and becoming a better person. But I seek to serve God not the idols of humans.

I've got to tell you muffler and bkb; this is fun. You are challenging me to grow in my faith and I must say it is working. At the end of the day we may not agree on our way to salvation, but I wouldnt have guessed I would learn as much from a Buckeye website talking to two non-believers. Thank you.

edit: There I go being judgmental. I truly meant, non-Christians.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

non-believers

Just a correction... I think I can speak for Muffler here.... we both ARE believers... we're just not Christians.

But, point taken none-the-less.

 

[jwinslow]

Daily. They're called kids.... especially the teen aged ones. Surely if I can do it, G-d is capable. And, yes, I like spending long periods of time with them... and te more time goes on, the more I want the time back.

Let me try another direction. I'm more going for whether they want to be with him and show it then whether I can forgive my children. I agree completely with the unconditional love line, but 1 person doesn't make a relationship.

Edit: As I just heard on a trailer for a movie my son's getting ready to watch - A parent says to his child "There's nothing you could do that would change my love for you." And that quote hits the nail on the head.... Unconditional love.... If I'm capable of it, I figure G-d is too.

If they were going around murdering, raping and stealing from severely handicapped people (trying to come up with examples that would compare to how our sins are in the presence of G-d), would you continue to welcome them into your home? If they lived the opposite of how you raised them, would you just welcome into the house with no consequences?