Modern Faiths

[DontHateOState]

Interesting.

1) Where in the Jewish Bible does it say that the Messiah will be a miracle worker?
2) Where in the Jewish Bible does it say that the Messiah will be born of a virgin?

If you're interested, I can provide you with a list of criteria that the Jewish Messiah will fulfill in one lifetime. Neither of the two points above are on the list of important criteria.

Of course they are.

There is no middle ground. If Jesus of Nazareth was merely a man, born of natural processes, then His death could not atone for the sins of others. And that is the foundation of Christianity.

 

[muffler dragon]

Of course they are.

Actually, no, they're not.

Jews for Judaism

First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)
He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)
To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah.
He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)
He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)
He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)
He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)
He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)
He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)
All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.
If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.

These are the key criteria for the JEWISH Messiah. Now, what you've written as being crucial MAY be criteria for your Messiah; but it's not the one awaited for millenia.

There is no middle ground. If Jesus of Nazareth was merely a man, born of natural processes, then His death could not atone for the sins of others. And that is the foundation of Christianity.

And this has no foundation in the Jewish Bible.

As counterpoints, please see: Ezekiel 18 and Psalm 45:8.

Personal accountability is foundational to Judaism. The soul that sins is accountable, and the soul that repents is forgiven. No mediator need apply.

 

[DontHateOState]

Actually, no, they're not.

Jews for Judaism



These are the key criteria for the JEWISH Messiah. Now, what you've written as being crucial MAY be criteria for your Messiah; but it's not the one awaited for millenia.



And this has no foundation in the Jewish Bible.

As counterpoints, please see: Ezekiel 18 and Psalm 45:8.

Personal accountability is foundational to Judaism. The soul that sins is accountable, and the soul that repents is forgiven. No mediator need apply.

That is all true, but that was not the question.

As it is, I guess I still don't understand why a magical Jesus is so important to Christians. (I don't mean to be flip by using the word "magical")

If one does not understand why it is of the utmost importance to Christians then one does not understand Christianity.

 

[muffler dragon]

That is all true, but that was not the question.

Do you mean these two questions? Or something else?

1) Where in the Jewish Bible does it say that the Messiah will be a miracle worker?
2) Where in the Jewish Bible does it say that the Messiah will be born of a virgin?

 

[DontHateOState]

Do you mean these two questions? Or something else?

I mean the original question; why is it important to Christians that Jesus was born of a virgin and performed miracles?

The answer to that is clear; if Jesus was not born of a virgin, and if He did not perform miracles then He was just another man. Therefore, His death does not bring about the forgiveness of sins. Ergo, Christianity is based upon a false prophet.

The foundation of Christianity is Jesus divinity. I struggle to see how that is not clear to buckeyeskicksbuttocks.

 

[Taosman]

I mean the original question; why is it important to Christians that Jesus was born of a virgin and performed miracles?

The answer to that is clear; if Jesus was not born of a virgin, and if He did not perform miracles then He was just another man. Therefore, His death does not bring about the forgiveness of sins. Ergo, Christianity is based upon a false prophet.

The foundation of Christianity is Jesus divinity. I struggle to see how that is not clear to buckeyeskicksbuttocks.

Your "struggle" is because you accept his divinity as a matter of faith.
Faith, not logic or evidence. That's your "problem" so to speak, not his.
Your asking BKB to have your faith.

 

[DontHateOState]

Your "struggle" is because you accept his divinity as a matter of faith.
Faith, not logic or evidence. That's your "problem" so to speak, not his.
Your asking BKB to have your faith.

This post misses in a few ways.

First of all, this has nothing to do with who believes in what. It has everything to do with what Christianity believes. If Jesus is not divine then Christianity is not the "true" religion.

Secondly, I am not asking him to have my faith at all. He has the right to believe in whatever he wishes. I am asking him to understand that Jesus divinity means everything to Christianity. If he did not do what others say he did, if he is not who he says he was (I know muffler/bgrad are discussing this elsewhere), etc., then Christianity is not "true." This would make it a religion based on lies, as Bleed S & G is ascertaining.

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

Pfffft...lots of soldiers shop at the PX...

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Donthate - I do understand that Christianity is based upon the notion of a divine Jesus.

What I don't understand is the point of a middle man to G-d and I don't see the point in someone else dying for my sins when I take responsibility for my own sins my own self. I personally believe Christianity looks at the human condition as powerless to do anything but fail. Thus, the need for Jesus' role in Christianity.... "you can't do it yourself, so here's Jesus!" I don't buy it. I don't know.... G-d seems perfectly happy with me and I haven't "accepted" Jesus in to my life.

FWIW - If the concept of Jesus makes one contemplate G-d, then I'm all for it. You use the words "lies" and "wrong" and "not true religion" and so on.... Worship of G-d is more important than who's religion is "true" Besides, there is no such thing as a "true" religion. I find the notion that an infinite G-d can only be approached in one manner ridiculous on the face of it.

But, again, if believing something makes one give praise to G-d, I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem, I guess, when what works for you (and I don't mean YOU Donthate) is held over my head but that's not what I get from your post....

 

[fanaticbuckeye]

What I don't understand is the point of a middle man to G-d and I don't see the point in someone else dying for my sins when I take responsibility for my own sins my own self. I personally believe Christianity looks at the human condition as powerless to do anything but fail. Thus, the need for Jesus' role in Christianity.... "you can't do it yourself, so here's Jesus!" I don't buy it. I don't know....

1.) God is infinitely holy and righteous.
2.) All have sinned against God.
3.) Punishment for sin is death.
4.) Therefor all sinners must pay for their sins with death or else God's word would not be law if there were no consequences for his law.
5.) Jesus is our salvation and bridge to God through his grace because of his life and sacrifice.

G-d seems perfectly happy with me and I haven't "accepted" Jesus in to my life.

It is not anyones place on internet forums to judge you for your relationship with God; only God's. I hope for your sake someday this statement changes. However, this is a fundamental belief of Christianity. Jesus is the savior and without him, we are incapable of meeting God's standard.

You use the words "lies" and "wrong" and "not true religion" and so on.... Worship of G-d is more important than who's religion is "true" Besides, there is no such thing as a "true" religion. I find the notion that an infinite G-d can only be approached in one manner ridiculous on the face of it.

Not to Christians, through our faith that the Holy Bible gives us the roadmap to salvation.

But, again, if believing something makes one give praise to G-d, I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem, I guess, when what works for you (and I don't mean YOU Donthate) is held over my head but that's not what I get from your post....

I understand what you're saying and can appreciate that you have taken a very respectful tone in your judgement. At the same time, there is only one way to God for Christians; Jesus. Without Jesus, you can have no salvation. Which implies without the one way (Jesus) all other paths will not lead you to God.


BKB and all other non-christians, please dont read into my words as judgements of you; it is not and I am not worthy of your judgement. I simply am not a skilled enough writer to make my point more eloquently. Merely use it as one Christians understanding of his faith and road to his salvation and why I believe you (read:no one specific, but everyone in general) cant have salvation or reach God without Jesus. The good news for me, is if BKB is right and many roads (or many faiths if you will) lead to God then we are all in good company, just passing time on the journey to Him.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Fanatic -
​

1.) God is infinitely holy and righteous.
2.) All have sinned against God.
3.) Punishment for sin is death.
4.) Therefor all sinners must pay for their sins with death or else God's word would not be law if there were no consequences for his law.
5.) Jesus is our salvation and bridge to God through his grace because of his life and sacrifice.

I don't intend to argue that Christians don't have pillars of faith, or working premises, or whatever. These you list are as good as any, I suppose. But, here's what I don't get

1 - I'll assume 1 is True as I think an infinite G-d would be those things
2 - Why do you think all have sinned against G-d?
3 - We all die... I guess maybe that's the support for we've all sinned?
4 - Why does G-d have to be judge, jury and executioner? Why can't he take on a more parental role (if you will) where we are here to learn, to love, to enjoy without the specter of failure and consequence hanging over us? I mean, premises 2 and 3 basically you cannot help but sin (Taken to the extreme it would mean G-d incapable of creating a creature who could have free will but also not sin, and thus your G-d is not infallible) and then you say we're all doomed to G-d's wrath ... and that's all well and good, I suppose.. but.. I don't get to how you end up at 5
5 - G-d himself takes on human form, comes down here to die for our sins, and that somehow fixes something wrong with the human condition....

Why wouldn't G-d simply say "I forgive them" without the macabre execution of human flesh... He's G-d, after all. He could do it and it seems a lot cleaner. I just don't understand the need for some sort of magical demonstration. It seems entirely pointless to me, as an article of faith, anyway.

One final point, my statement about being in good standing with G-d and being so without Jesus' help... why is that so difficult for you to believe? I'm not looking for a re-iteration of what you already said (ie, because Christians believe you need Christ)... I'm saying, what do you see introspectively inside you that has caused you to think you were not in G-d's graces before you accepted Jesus? If you've always accepted Jesus, what makes you qualified to assume what you're being told about the importance of acceptance has merit?

On this, I will admit, when I finally gave up Jesus for good, and I retired the cross I wore around my neck... I did indeed have legitimate fear of what would happen next.... I was afraid that my life was now going to fall apart... indeed, this fear is what kept that talisman around my neck for so many years.... and...

Nothing happened. G-d and me are still "good" and I feel a lot more "honest" with myself.

 

[fanaticbuckeye]

Fanatic -
​

I don't intend to argue that Christians don't have pillars of faith, or working premises, or whatever. These you list are as good as any, I suppose. But, here's what I don't get

1 - I'll assume 1 is True as I think an infinite G-d would be those things
2 - Why do you think all have sinned against G-d?

"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." [Rom. 3:23]
"Whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."[James. 2:10]
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." [1 John. 1:8]
I have sinned. I know all have sinned because, 1 the Bible says so and 2 because the list of sins is so large that all humans have committed a sin of some kind. One sin is equal to having committed all sins.

3 - We all die... I guess maybe that's the support for we've all sinned?

I want to reconcile with God before death.

4 - Why does G-d have to be judge, jury and executioner? Why can't he take on a more parental role (if you will) where we are here to learn, to love, to enjoy without the specter of failure and consequence hanging over us? I mean, premises 2 and 3 basically you cannot help but sin (Taken to the extreme it would mean G-d incapable of creating a creature who could have free will but also not sin, and thus your G-d is not infallible) and then you say we're all doomed to G-d's wrath ... and that's all well and good, I suppose.. but.. I don't get to how you end up at 5

Not to sound smart, but God is not a government body. He is 1 God that is holy and just. Because he is that, who else would you rather be the judge, jury and executioner?

5 - G-d himself takes on human form, comes down here to die for our sins, and that somehow fixes something wrong with the human condition....

It didnt fix a human condition, it provide a 'bridge' to salvation

Why wouldn't G-d simply say "I forgive them" without the macabre execution of human flesh... He's G-d, after all. He could do it and it seems a lot cleaner. I just don't understand the need for some sort of magical demonstration. It seems entirely pointless to me, as an article of faith, anyway.

I dont know, but believe it will have something to do with judgement for sins.

One final point, my statement about being in good standing with G-d and being so without Jesus' help... why is that so difficult for you to believe?

To be fair and hopefully I dont sound childish; but I believe I have a relationship with God because of Jesus Christ. I am not saying you do or do not have a relationship with God. Merely, stating my faith and belief system and am being as non-judgemental of you as possible.

I'm not looking for a re-iteration of what you already said (ie, because Christians believe you need Christ)... I'm saying, what do you see introspectively inside you that has caused you to think you were not in G-d's graces before you accepted Jesus? If you've always accepted Jesus, what makes you qualified to assume what you're being told about the importance of acceptance has merit?

Introspectively, I am weak minded, boastful, lustful and have questioned God. I have not always accepted Jesus, but I do now. My merits to believe and know now what I believe is the truth comes from my understanding of the Bible (little that I do have) and that God desperately want a relationship with all of us.

On this, I will admit, when I finally gave up Jesus for good, and I retired the cross I wore around my neck... I did indeed have legitimate fear of what would happen next.... I was afraid that my life was now going to fall apart... indeed, this fear is what kept that talisman around my neck for so many years.... and...

Nothing happened. G-d and me are still "good" and I feel a lot more "honest" with myself.

Once again, BKB, I am simply stating my belief system. I am not trying to convince you that I am right and you are wrong. Obviously, I have my belief system that makes me believe I have found the way to God through Christ and without it I wouldnt have this relationship.

I may be overly sensitive to not judging others, but I have seen too many times debates turn to arguments between unqualified debaters (I am the unqualified one here, not you) further solidify ones disbelief in the other sides argument because of ignorance or an over simplified "...just because" argument. I jumped in here to respond respectfully to your questions.

 

[MaxBuck]

I've never understood the Catholic ritual of confession. Why not just confess/repent directly to God. Isn't that what prayer is for ?

I'm not RC, but I'll give you a couple of possible reasons.

1. (cynical) The RC Church historically has used confession (and the granting of absolution by its priests) as a way of binding parishioners to the Church, and in the distant past (through sale of indulgences, etc.) as a big-time moneymaking venture.

2. (not cynical) The Church recognizes that bringing one's failures into the light of day has a cleansing component that is important to both the sinner and to his fellowman. A secular analogy might be evident in the activities of journalists to bring wrongdoing to light via news reporting, hoping to ennoble and inform society in the process.

 

[muffler dragon]

I mean the original question; why is it important to Christians that Jesus was born of a virgin and performed miracles?

The answer to that is clear; if Jesus was not born of a virgin, and if He did not perform miracles then He was just another man. Therefore, His death does not bring about the forgiveness of sins. Ergo, Christianity is based upon a false prophet.

And I raised my questions for the purpose of introspection. FTR, it's noteworthy that I was a Christian for over 20 years. I spent seven years in apologetics studies, and the preparation for debate. Furthermore, my discourse with you and any other Christian believer is not an advocation of my path. Instead, I like to have in-depth interesting discussions. I feel that strong arguments can be enlightening and enjoyable.

I once heard a phrase that has become a mantra of mine, "Challenge your faith daily". There are some who like to do that with me even though they are of divergent faiths. Some don't. The question I pose to you, "Which are you?"

Btw, I wouldn't be so final as to say that if Jesus can't forgive sins; then Christianity is based on a false prophet. But that's just me.

 

[muffler dragon]

If I may, then I'd like to interject.

1.) God is infinitely holy and righteous.

Among other things.

2.) All have sinned against God.

I must ask: how would you go about proving this?

3.) Punishment for sin is death.

Indeed.

4.) Therefor all sinners must pay for their sins with death or else God's word would not be law if there were no consequences for his law.

And that is what the vast majority of the world's inhabitants through out time have done. Once death comes upon us, our "debt" is paid. Granted, many are forgiven of their sins previously through repentance.

I must ask: since Elijah didn't die, how do you view him?

5.) Jesus is our salvation and bridge to God through his grace because of his life and sacrifice.

But why is this important? You just said above that "all sinners must pay for their sins with death". Furthermore, from what do we need salvation?

Jesus is the savior and without him, we are incapable of meeting God's standard.

This again seems irrelevant considering your "death" statement above, no?

At the same time, there is only one way to God for Christians; Jesus. Without Jesus, you can have no salvation.

Question: do you see a foundation to this belief in the Jewish Bible?

Which implies without the one way (Jesus) all other paths will not lead you to God.

Indeed. Christianity is not a universalistic religioin.

BKB and all other non-christians, please dont read into my words as judgements of you; it is not and I am not worthy of your judgement. I simply am not a skilled enough writer to make my point more eloquently. Merely use it as one Christians understanding of his faith and road to his salvation and why I believe you (read:no one specific, but everyone in general) cant have salvation or reach God without Jesus. The good news for me, is if BKB is right and many roads (or many faiths if you will) lead to God then we are all in good company, just passing time on the journey to Him.

Would you be interested in reading a refutation based on the first section of your Bible (aka the Jewish Bible portion)?