Michigan's real nemesis - Troy or Tressel?

[Zurp]

I think that, in the long run, Tressel is better for Ohio State. I think that Cooper would have been 2-1 against Michigan with Troy Smith as quarterback. Jim Tressel would have been 0-3 against Michigan with Justin Zwick as quarterback.

However, Tressel will continue to win 60% - 70% of the games against Michigan, without Troy Smith.

 

[BrianO]

I also believe that JT is in the business of creating those types of players.

Agreed, Smith is the product of a JT Organization so I have to go with JT.

 

[UpNorthBuckeye]

Tressell all the way

scUM fans have a real problem with JT. They love to attack his integrity now, saying he "wimped out" by not voting in the poll. I tell them that what he did was pull out a win in a no-win situation.

In fact, they complain about him not "supporting his conference" by voting for Michigan as No. 2, and yet they also criticize SEC coaches for "voting as a bloc" in the polls and supporting Florida.

I just keep telling them, rematch in Ann Arbor, November 17, 2007, see you there!!

Another point in this "Troy or Tressell?" thread, Tressell has the team believing so strongly, that they can turn the ball over six times in two years and STILL beat TTUN!! If not for JT, the team would have probably lost it when they fumbled those snaps this year.

As I told a scUMmer today, Bo's death inspired the team, henne had his best game ever against tOSU, Hart had his best game ever against tOSU and Carr probably coached his best game ever against OSU, we spot them 7 points and they STILL COULDN'T BEAT US THIS YEAR.

If we were to play them again in the NC, we would have beaten them by 14 points MINIMUM.

I'm starting to (almost) feel sorry for Florida.....

 

[lvbuckeye]

2-1 isn't really all that significant in terms of this question. Certainly not enough to declare with certainty that Tressel minus Troy is Michigan's nemesis.

i'm going to resist my initial urge to call you a bleeping moron, and will instead debunk your deeply flawed "logic."

there are only TWO data sets to consider when determining whether or not Tressel or Troy is the answer. 1) Craig Krenzel and 2) Troy Smith.

with Krenzel, Tressel posted a 2-1 record in The Game, despite being a double digit underdog in 2001, and despite losing CK to injury for a portion of The Game in '03. 2-1

with Troy Smith, Tressel posted a 3-0 record in The Game, despite being a double digit underdog in 2004. 3-0.

one might easily surmise, when considering the way that Ohio State clawed its way back into The Game in 2003 without its starting QB, without a viable running game, and with a Defense that was absolutely EXHAUSTED due to the offensive woes, that Tressel at least equalled llllloyd with regards to coaching in his lone loss in the series.

I'm sure whoever is under center for OSU next year will benefit from Tressel's coaching, and learn to read a defense and have his progressions hammered into him. But you can't coach fast feet, an accurate arm, or big-pressure-game icy veins. Smith's got all of the above.

you seem to forget that Tressel beat a double digit favorite in 2001 IN ANN ARBOR with a QB who was making his VERY FIRST START. trust me when i tell you that no matter WHO is under center in the Scarlet and Gray next year, they WILL be ready.

Last year's game, if I remember it right, hinged on a crucial third-down play in which Smith escaped from an impossible situation and hit Gonzalez for a long first down. This year, I promise you the biggest worry going into the game for Michigan fans was that Smith would outrun our front seven again. That, to me, makes Smith the biggest nemesis.

funny, M fans were worried about Troy running, but instead he torched you with the pass. looks like good COACHING broke that tendency to run...

Don't read into it like I'm saying Michigan's out of the woods now because Smith will be gone. Tressel's a coach to be reckoned with. But Smith is the guy that makes that offense go.

repeat after me: CRAIG KRENZEL. one more time: CRAIG FREAKING KRENZEL.

class dismissed.

 

[BuckeyeTillIDie]

yes, lv nailed it

 

[Jaxbuck]

Just like NoD fans have nowhere to go but to blame it all on Ty, scUM fans have to say it was all Troy.

The alternative is to face a very harsh reality and thats no fun when you can stay all warm and comfy in the make believe world where scUM and NoD are still atop the CFB world.

 

[HailToMichigan]

i'm going to resist my initial urge to call you a bleeping moron, and will instead debunk your deeply flawed "logic."

there are only TWO data sets to consider when determining whether or not Tressel or Troy is the answer. 1) Craig Krenzel and 2) Troy Smith.

with Krenzel, Tressel posted a 2-1 record in The Game, despite being a double digit underdog in 2001, and despite losing CK to injury for a portion of The Game in '03. 2-1

with Troy Smith, Tressel posted a 3-0 record in The Game, despite being a double digit underdog in 2004. 3-0.

one might easily surmise, when considering the way that Ohio State clawed its way back into The Game in 2003 without its starting QB, without a viable running game, and with a Defense that was absolutely EXHAUSTED due to the offensive woes, that Tressel at least equalled llllloyd with regards to coaching in his lone loss in the series.

you seem to forget that Tressel beat a double digit favorite in 2001 IN ANN ARBOR with a QB who was making his VERY FIRST START. trust me when i tell you that no matter WHO is under center in the Scarlet and Gray next year, they WILL be ready.

funny, M fans were worried about Troy running, but instead he torched you with the pass. looks like good COACHING broke that tendency to run...

repeat after me: CRAIG KRENZEL. one more time: CRAIG FREAKING KRENZEL.

class dismissed.

You're overcomplicating the issue. Hell, you make it sound like the 2003 Ohio State team was some kind of raggedy peewee bunch that made it through that game on sheer coach-induced willpower. That was the #4 team in the country at the time. The 2003 OSU team was pretty good.

In 2004, Troy Smith ran for 150 yards and a touchdown and threw for 240 more, and 2 TDs. In 2005, Troy Smith chucked it for another 300 yards and engineered the game winning drive, including a how-he-do-that scramble for the key 26-yarder to Gonzalez. Smith added 316 more yards through the air in 2006.

It's funny how you guys are willing to denigrate the hell out of Craig Krenzel in order to make this point. But John Navarre is no excuse.

Will any three or four-year starting QB at Ohio State ever again go undefeated against Michigan? Very, very, very unlikely. Troy Smith did something that hasn't been done since 1936. Zurp said it above: No way Zwick goes undefeated against Michigan. No way. And that's as complicated as it needs to be.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

HTM - Of course Troy made a difference. I don't think anyone disputes that. But, coaching is what takes talent and puts them in position to win. Don't believe me? Talk to John Cooper. Some of the teams he put together were unreal, in 1998 OSU won of course, but I'd argue that OSU was the more talented team in 93, 95 and 96. Zero wins in those games, and got shut out 28 - zip in 93.

My point is this, while OSU isn't going to begin producing Heisman calibur QBs every couple years, there isn't going to be a drop off in talent to something ridiculous. Tressel won with Krenzel, a good QB who made few mistakes. Tressel won with Smith, a great QB who made even less mistakes. If Tressel gets something in between, I like OSU's chances.

Michigan will win The Game again at some point.. maybe next year even... but that won't prove it was Troy and not Jim.

 

[OSU Rob]

you know it's going good when people are arguing why we're winning lol

 

[WaitingforKickoff]

The real question should be: Michigan's real nemesis - Troy Smith or Troy Smith's arm? Since every pass that Troy Smith has ever completed technically resulted from the thrusting of his arm, I wonder if we are overemphasizing Troy's amazing football IQ and leadership. Not that it matters, but all Tressel does is recruit amazing players such as Smith at every position and coach them up while all Carr does is recruit crappy DBs whom get destroyed by Smith's arm. Just food for thought.

 

[Jaxbuck]

You're overcomplicating the issue. Hell, you make it sound like the 2003 Ohio State team was some kind of raggedy peewee bunch that made it through that game on sheer coach-induced willpower. That was the #4 team in the country at the time. The 2003 OSU team was pretty good.

In 2004, Troy Smith ran for 150 yards and a touchdown and threw for 240 more, and 2 TDs. In 2005, Troy Smith chucked it for another 300 yards and engineered the game winning drive, including a how-he-do-that scramble for the key 26-yarder to Gonzalez. Smith added 316 more yards through the air in 2006.

It's funny how you guys are willing to denigrate the hell out of Craig Krenzel in order to make this point. But John Navarre is no excuse.

Will any three or four-year starting QB at Ohio State ever again go undefeated against Michigan? Very, very, very unlikely. Troy Smith did something that hasn't been done since 1936. Zurp said it above: No way Zwick goes undefeated against Michigan. No way. And that's as complicated as it needs to be.

This is how simple it is.

Tress went 2-1 with a good but not great QB.

Tress went 3-0 with a great QB.

I agree we'll more than likely never see another Troy Smith in our lifetime but guess what? I'll take 2 out of 3 type results with whoever steps up in the future and Tress is more than capable of that as long as Voyd is around.

Your assertation that the initial 2-1 means nothing makes it hard to give anything else you say any credence at all.

 

[DaddyBigBucks]

I, for one, don't think HTM's arguments are nearly as bad as they are made out to be here.

But I do have to wonder about the 2-1 not being that significant.

Small sample size? Sure, but it's all we have to go on. Considering that Tressel's tenure will likely be in the 20 year range, 3 years is as good a sample size as you'll get without just examining all of the data. Thankfully we'll have to wait awhile for that.

The most significant thing to me about that first 3 years spans is this: Two of those Three games were in Ann Arbor. Without Troy, Tressel is .500 on the road and batting 1.000 at home against TSUN. I'll take 15 more years of that with a couple more crystal football's on the side please.

 

[zincfinger]

In all honesty I do believe that a Tressel coached scUM would have beaten a Carr coached Ohio State this year.

This essentially goes to the you-can't-separate-the-two-factors argument, but I'd be willing to bet that if Jim Tressel and Terry Hoeppner switched rosters today, the Hoeppner-led OSU team would beat the bejeezus out of the Tressel-led IU team. OSU/UM isn't strictly comparable, since they have similar talent levels to one another, but the point is that Jim Tressel deserves some of the credit for having a great quarterback in Troy Smith, as he deserves some credit for his players across the board; in recruiting, development, and game-planning.

 

[restless]

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Would you rather face:
a) Cooper with the 06 roster (TS)
b) Tressel with the 95/98 roster

Anyone choose a) will regret. Troy is great, no doubt. But he still needs the environment to shine. JT grants it and Cooper doesn't. Besides, didn't we destroy you guys in 98! Apparently it didn't matter with Cooper being the coach.