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Michigan's real nemesis - Troy or Tressel?

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No Question it's JT. Besides the great play by Smith, don't forget the adjustments JT made such THe Tyree factor in last years game. That was a colossal move by JT.
He has also been able to adapt his gameplan according to the talents of his players. From tressel ball to wide open tressel ball. He achieves what he wants to.
 
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beatnd;678935; said:
OK guys....since I can tell you're already sickened by the Florida swamp gas on your site :)....and since 50 days is plenty of time to talk about some other worthy topics besides The Gator's pity entry into the NC....I thought I'd get in a quick Michigan topic if that's alright?
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....I've got an honest question I'd love your perspective on:

I'm a Wolverine and my brother's a Buckeye (yeah things get real interesting in our family the week of THE GAME
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) ....we we're discussing today who really has been the reason that OSU has had Michigan's number as of late....ie - Is it Tressel that has owned Carr or is it Troy that has owned Michigan? Now the popular media/fan take has been the former of course....5-1, LLLLLoyd etc....etc....but I'm just wondering if it's actually the latter?

Now let me first say, Tressel is clearly a fantastic coach, great leader, exudes team confidence, great game planner/strategist etc....etc.... - and he clearly 'gets' the UM-OSU rivalry!....and yes the fact is Lloyd is clearly halfway to Cooper territory vs Tressel.....but....

I just can't help but wonder if Tressel is actually 2-1 against Carr (pre-Troy) and then the real key point lately is that Troy is 3-0 against Michigan.....ie - that the true difference maker in the last 3 UM-OSU games has really been Troy not Tressel? I mean Troy's big-game pedigree is amazing! He's 5-0 as a starter in OSU's biggest showdowns - Michigan 3-times, Texas and Notre Dame. Staggering moments and/or offensive stats can be found in all five. Particularly 1000+ yards in 3 Mich games!!....I mean that's unreal!!!! Now is that just Troy - a Heisman winning QB - makin' it happen in THE GAME or is it coaching?....I don't know it just seems like it takes a long scarlet and gray thread to tie that all to Tressel's brilliance. Clearly the Michigan defense has been unable to wrap up and contain Smith in 2004 & 2005 (with a 9 pt 4th qtr lead) and stop him at all in 2006 (especially with the score 35-31 in the 4th qtr)....but is that evidence that Tressel made any great coaching decisions or that Carr - a coach with 27 years at Michigan - suddenly doesn't 'get' the Buckeyes-Wolverines rivalry (especially when you consider his domination of Cooper and that 4 of his 5 losses to Tressel are by 6 points or less?)....or is it just that Troy has played absolutely amazing in these big Michigan games!....and thus it is Troy that really owns Michigan?

Now I'm sure it's obviously a combination of the two....but I'm interested in what you think....if you had to pick one or the other....do you think that as of late it's really been Tressel that has owned Carr or Troy that has owned Michigan? I'd love your perspective guys....and I guess we'll get a good 'Troyless' data point next year in Ann Arbor right?
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All the best!
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Yes, Troy is a great player who has been instrumental in winning the lasts three Michigan games. But, Troy is a great player in large measure because of the coaching that he has received under Tressel. And, Tressel beat Michigan twice with an above average but not great QB named Craig Krenzel. So, I'd have to give 2/3 of the credit to JT, and 1/3 to TS.

In other words, don't get your hopes up just because Troy is graduating... :)
 
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MuckFich06;679602; said:
Smith was a QB when he came to tOSU and was good enough to go to an elite QB camp with MSU's QB. Zwick had the early track to the starting job, so Smith plugged into other needs. It is difficult to say if he would have been a QB at Michigan or if he would have been a special teams player at tOSU had Zwick had better protection from the line when he first got the starting nod or had not been injured against Iowa. I am not downplaying what has occurred between Tressel and Smith. I think it says a lot about Smith that he came to tOSU where he knew he might be relegated to back up or other duties rather than going somewhere he would be guaranteed to play QB.

On the other side, I think Carr is a whiner with the refs and that he can be gruf with the media. I also think that he has a solid value system which he relates to his players on a daily basis. I think tOSU fans have a tendency to look at situations like this through scarlet colored glasses and fail to see the good side of LLLLLoyd. It told me a lot about Carr's character when I heard that Iowa coach Kirk Ferentz's young son declared that he wanted to play for Coach Carr when he grew up. Carr runs a very good, and from what I can tell, clean program. For that I believe he deserves a certain level of respect. That's all I'm saying.
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When I read the statement I originally replied to, I had to make a very concentrated effort to not snort coffee out of my nose. In my opinion, Troy Smith, had he been coached under Lloyd Carr, would be nothing like Troy Smith today. And that seemed (to me) to be the obvious flaw in the man's argument to begin with.
As far as Carr himself goes -- I have no real issues with him. However, I do not regard him as a great man to exemplify. I never have and never will. And that has nothing to do with my scarlet shades. I held Bo in the utmost respect, despite hating his guts half the time. Carr is simply not the kind of man who is even capable of taking the "higher road". He is not a bad person, but he is not the kind that'll give anyone impetus to become better themselves either. This latest debacle is exactly what I expected from Carr, and I haven't been let down in the slightest, so I feel my opinion is justified.
Having said that, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
 
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Best Buckeye;679614; said:
No Question it's JT. Besides the great play by Smith, don't forget the adjustments JT made such THe Whaley factor in last years game. That was a colossal move by JT.
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I''m thinking you meant to say Andree Tyree, rather than Whaley.
 
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23Skidoo;679625; said:
When I read the statement I originally replied to, I had to make a very concentrated effort to not snort coffee out of my nose. In my opinion, Troy Smith, had he been coached under Lloyd Carr, would be nothing like Troy Smith today. And that seemed (to me) to be the obvious flaw in the man's argument to begin with.
As far as Carr himself goes -- I have no real issues with him. However, I do not regard him as a great man to exemplify. I never have and never will. And that has nothing to do with my scarlet shades. I held Bo in the utmost respect, despite hating his guts half the time. Carr is simply not the kind of man who is even capable of taking the "higher road". He is not a bad person, but he is not the kind that'll give anyone impetus to become better themselves either. This latest debacle is exactly what I expected from Carr, and I haven't been let down in the slightest, so I feel my opinion is justified.
Having said that, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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I'm no Carr advocate, but here is an article I found quite easily on Carr as inspirational leader (came up on first page of Yahoo search for Lloyd Carr). And of course, I'd take Tressel over him in a heartbeat.

http://www.michigandaily.com/media/...0612051726&sourcedomain=www.michigandaily.comhttp://http//www.michigandaily.com/...0612051714&sourcedomain=www.michigandaily.com

I simply have a tendency to want to correct statements that I see as over simplistic, such as Smith could have never developed under Carr. Anyways, for what its worth.

Cheers. And Go Bucks!!
 
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My guess: The weasels are waking up to the realization that Jim Tressel, (Happy Birthday, JT!), has emerged as a multi-faceted dominant fb coach. The weasels can look forward to "Groundhog Day" experiences against JT in the future. A win here or there, but dominance, for the most part, by Jim Tressel.
 
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JT or Troy?
Here is my view --
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On this finger I show you the number of wins I've had against Ohio State under Jim Tressel.
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My clenched hand under the table has the digits for every loss to that man.
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:tongue2:
 
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Thanks guys - I've been impressed with the quality of the posts/discussion on this thread....it's progressed very productively....great stuff!
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especially given the key point that was highlighted:

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this is an emotional issue, which makes it difficult to judge objectively. The reason I say it's emotional is that Michigan fans will want to believe that it's Troy Smith, because that would mean it's over now. Equally, OSU fans will want to believe it's Tressel, as that would mean it's not over.
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So so true!

In response to the comments like the below:

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If UM wins next year thanks to a dominant game from Hart, your MVP, then it was Hart not Carr that won the game?
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I just think some people are undervaluing Troy in making statements like that?...you can't compare Smith to Hart (or anyone else on UM or OSU recently) in terms of their respective impact on the outcome of THE GAME?Smith is in a class of his own?...Troy has put up the best stats of any buckeye player ever in this rivalry ? 1000+ yds in 3 wins?!?!?....he's unquestionably the greatest buckeye player ever in THE GAME in the 100+ yr history of this great Mich-OSU rivalry!....Thus, like many, I just think it's hard not to believe that TS has been the key x-factor in the last 3 OSU wins?...yes Tress is a great coach and yes he has clearly helped turn the tide back to OSU post Coop as evidenced by his 1st 3 Troyless years?....but given TS's phenomenal historical nums/performances the last 3 years, it?s hard not to believe that he's been the crucial difference maker in THE GAME the last 3 years. But like I said, we?ll find out over the next 5 years? ?.and as a start next year in A2 if Carr wins then Carr-Tress will be back even at 2-2 ex 'The Legend of Troy' ...now if Tress wins however....probably as an underdog...on the road....well then we all can resume the Tress owns Carr talk for sure!
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And another person on a different site asked:

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Would you rather face:
a) Cooper with the 06 roster (TS)
b) Tressel with the 95/98 roster
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Well I guess given my comments above, as much as we loooooooved Cooper
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....I for one would still rather face whichever team did not have the Heisman winning, undefeated, greatest Buckeye player ever in UM-OSU history at QB!...ie - Tress and the 95/98 boys?...although they would be a damn formidable bunch wouldn't they?!
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And finally I kind of think a buckeye was onto the key of it all when he wrote:


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The Game usually eats first-time players alive because of the heavy pressure. The Game is decided by two big factors - how experienced the players are with handling the heavy pressure of playing in it, and who has the Signature Player who can bend steel to make The Game his own.

Of course, having Tressel doesn't hurt. He's not God, but he's a heck of lot better at preparing players from the neck up than Cooper was.
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Undoubtedly, Tress is no Coop....especially from the neck up!
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And even more undoubtedly Troy is clearly as good as anyone ever in this great rivalry at 'handling the pressure' and 'bending steel to make THE GAME his own!'
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Happy Holidays everyone!
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It's Troy. Not that OSU will revert to the Cooper era when Smith leaves. But in 2005, Troy Smith almost singlehandedly won the game. And in 2006, Tressel's five-wide spread offense gave Michigan fits, but it doesn't work if Smith can't run through his progressions quickly or escape the pressure that's bound to happen when there's no RB and no blocking TE to handle the rush.

I don't think any comparisons as in "How would Smith do under Lloyd?" are valid, because Michigan doesn't use running QB's and never has. It changes the whole offense. No sample to gauge from.
 
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HailToMichigan;683698; said:
but it doesn't work if Smith can't run through his progressions quickly or escape the pressure that's bound to happen when there's no RB and no blocking TE to handle the rush.
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1) you don't think that the QBs waiting in the wings aren't learning how to watch film, and break down a defense- especially in light of what they have witnessed from Troy?
2) you don't think there is a reason that Tressel recruits tough, athletic (read: can run a little) QBs?

it is impossible to say "it's Troy," so simply. Tressel is the one who put Troy in that position... not to mention the fact that Tressel is 2-1 against TSUN with Craig Krenzel.
 
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JT recruited Troy and helped bring him to the stature he now has. Troy is a great player, and no doubt we wouldn't have won without him. But there is a reason he's in that position to control the game, and that reason is tressel.

the other thing is, its a team effort, and simply, we've been better. Its not just beating scUM, we've also won the Fiesta a few times.
 
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