M is for Moron...

[CrabMan]

Take the fan that threw the drink that set Artest off (no, I don't think it's even remotely reasonable to say he's an innocent)

Please take a look at the video. The fan that Artest attacked did not toss the cup and, thus, is an innocent bystander. The man in the blue shirt with the white hat did the tossing.

The NBA has stated clearly that players do not under ANY circumstances belong in the stands. Period.

If their ego had not got the best of them, none of this would have happened. Besides, it was a flipping plastic cup that hit him in the chest - not the head. No, it wasn't a bottle. It wasn't a hard plastic mug. It was a cheap plastic cup which, judging by the amount of liquid that came out once it hit the 6' 7" 246 lb thug, had hardly anything in it.

The fan that tossed the cup was wrong. Period. However, what Artest did can not be justified by a reasonable human being.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

Please take a look at the video. The fan that Artest attacked did not toss the cup and, thus, is an innocent bystander. The man in the blue shirt with the white hat did the tossing.

The NBA has stated clearly that players do not under ANY circumstances belong in the stands. Period.

If their ego had not got the best of them, none of this would have happened. Besides, it was a flipping plastic cup that hit him in the chest - not the head. No, it wasn't a bottle. It wasn't a hard plastic mug. It was a cheap plastic cup which, judging by the amount of liquid that came out once it hit the 6' 7" 246 lb thug, had hardly anything in it.

The fan that tossed the cup was wrong. Period. However, what Artest did can not be justified by a reasonable human being.

clarity never said the guy who threw the beer was the guy who got attacked.

 

[Clarity]

I'd rather not take a look at the video, partially because it's not relevant to my point, partially because I'm just not interested. If the geek he attacked wasn't the cup thrower, then the one you're referencing may well have been an innocent. Or perhaps he wasn't, doesn't really matter in the scope of my end of this discussion. Just more reason why fans who DO get out of hand should be banned from games for some period. It's for their fellow fan's protection. A fan threw the cup, and by no means is he or they an innocent.

And no, players never belong in the stands. Likewise, fans never belong on the court or field while the players and officials have a game-related presence on it.

As far as justifying Artests behavior, I don't see anyone saying that it was okay. I think people more or less universally know he screwed up and did the wrong thing. I think the closest some come to justifying it is looking at it the same way they might a case where a husband comes home to find the mailman and his wife in the reverse cowgirl and kills him. The guy is guilty of murder, but somewhere in some deep and ugly place inside us, a lot of people can look at that and go "he shouldn't have done it, but I understand where the urge came from that led to it."

We're not nearly as evolved as we like to think or pretend, and sometimes it shows. It's really that simple. And when it does, when we can't keep command of our emotions or actions, then we get slapped accordingly.

The players have been slapped, and my point is that the league should look closely at what they can do to slap fans in the future.

I don't really understand your point in playing down what the fan(s) did. There's also no reasonable justification for throwing any object at a player. It's nowhere near as bad as what Artest did, but we don't and shouldn't balance offenses off others in the same incident. Each should be measured on its own.

Had Artest not gone into the stands, I think a lot of people would have been outraged that a fan threw something on the court and hit a player. And if they weren't, they should have been. The fact that Artest did something ridiculously stupid after the fact, shouldn't change how we view the act of the fan(s), whoever they were.

Please take a look at the video. The fan that Artest attacked did not toss the cup and, thus, is an innocent bystander. The man in the blue shirt with the white hat did the tossing.

The NBA has stated clearly that players do not under ANY circumstances belong in the stands. Period.

If their ego had not got the best of them, none of this would have happened. Besides, it was a flipping plastic cup that hit him in the chest - not the head. No, it wasn't a bottle. It wasn't a hard plastic mug. It was a cheap plastic cup which, judging by the amount of liquid that came out once it hit the 6' 7" 246 lb thug, had hardly anything in it.

The fan that tossed the cup was wrong. Period. However, what Artest did can not be justified by a reasonable human being.

 

[CrabMan]

I'd rather not take a look at the video, partially because it's not relevant to my point, partially because I'm just not interested. If the geek he attacked wasn't the cup thrower, then the one you're referencing may well have been an innocent. Or perhaps he wasn't, doesn't really matter in the scope of my end of this discussion. Just more reason why fans who DO get out of hand should be banned from games for some period. It's for their fellow fan's protection. A fan threw the cup, and by no means is he or they an innocent.

And no, players never belong in the stands. Likewise, fans never belong on the court or field while the players and officials have a game-related presence on it.

As far as justifying Artests behavior, I don't see anyone saying that it was okay. I think people more or less universally know he screwed up and did the wrong thing. I think the closest some come to justifying it is looking at it the same way they might a case where a husband comes home to find the mailman and his wife in the reverse cowgirl and kills him. The guy is guilty of murder, but somewhere in some deep ugly spot, a lot of people can look at that and go "he shouldn't have done it, but I understand where the urge came from that led to it."

We're not nearly as evolved as we like to think or pretend, and sometimes it shows. It's really that simple. And when it does, when we can't keep command of our emotions or actions, then we get slapped accordingly.

The players have been slapped, and my point is that the league should look closely at what they can do to slap fans in the future.

I don't really understand your point in playing down what the fan(s) did. There's also no reasonable justification for throwing any object at a player. It's nowhere near as bad as what Artest did, but we don't and shouldn't balance offenses off others in the same incident. Each should be measured on its own.

Had Artest not gone into the stands, I think a lot of people would have been outraged that a fan threw something on the court and hit a player. And if they weren't, they should have been. The fact that Artest did something ridiculously stupid after the fact, shouldn't change how we view the act of the fan(s), whoever they were.

I agree there is absolutely no justification for throwing anything at a player and I'm not trying to justify their behavior. The fans we're wrong and need to be held accountable for their actions.

However, there are folks in this thread that are trying to justify Artest's behavior and that is what I find disguisting. Especially since he beat the crap out of an innocent bystander. I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate getting the hell beat out of you if you weren't involved, would you?

One last thing - to compare adultry to throwing a plastic cup....come on, Clarity. Apples to oranges.

 

[Clarity]

I'm not drawing a straight parallel between the acts in the slightest. Lol (sorry, I find the suggestion hysterical, but that's not at your expense really), nor would I, as there is no direct comparison to make. That's elementary. But there was a point to the reference, and it had everything to do with the part of each of us that is more feral than domesticated. That 'part' can speak to a wide range of anti-social acts, whether committed by us, or actions on the part of others that we witness. That 'part' can think "I'd want to kick some ass too", or "I might think about shooting him too", and hopefully for most of us that is squelched by our greater understanding that doing so would be wrong.

I haven't seen anyone justifying Artest's behavior, but that could just be a difference in perspective and context. I've spoken with vrb on this subject extensively, and I know he doesn't think Ron did the right thing, even if it sounds to some like he does. He may not be the one you're talking about, but like anything else, everything is about perspective. I would agree that anyone who would claim that Artest did nothing wrong, just refuses to voice what they must realize anyway out of pure bullheadedness. That he (Artest) 'did wrong', in my opinion, is inarguable.

Sure, I definitely wouldn't be happy about Artest trying to kick my ass had I not done anything. That would be a real injustice. But it's as hard to say that Artest's actions were (when measured as a misdeed) worse because he got the wrong guy, as it is to say that his actions would have been better had he got the right one. It's harder to stomach since he got the wrong one, it feels worse that way, but when peeling the emotional side away, it just doesn't (IMO) have a bearing on the severity of the incident. Sucks for the guy who got attacked though, lol. That much is certain. So I wouldn't be happy, but as the victim, I wouldn't have much perspective or objectivity on the issue either. I'd probably be doing the all-American thing by contemplating litigation.

Anyway, like I said, it's all an interesting subject. And honestly, I'm not sure that we're really saying different things at all. I think this thread, like a lot of others, are more about perceived differences in points, than true differences. But I could be overthinking it.

I agree there is absolutely no justification for throwing anything at a player and I'm not trying to justify their behavior. The fans we're wrong and need to be held accountable for their actions.

However, there are folks in this thread that are trying to justify Artest's behavior and that is what I find disguisting. Especially since he beat the crap out of an innocent bystander. I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate getting the hell beat out of you if you weren't involved, would you?

One last thing - to compare adultry to throwing a plastic cup....come on, Clarity. Apples to oranges.

 

[Bucklion]

This is not directed to anyone or posts in particular.


I think about what my wife has relayed to me over the years she was a floor nurse at several Columbus area hospitals. Many families and some patients were emotionally, psychologically, and yes physically abusive, but the repurcussions would come down only on the nurses if they ever did anything that could even be construed as retaliation. I agree that the fans throwing stuff at players should be thrown out and in fact humiliated (in front of the arena at the least, on TV too if you want), and in egregious cases never be allowed to return or buy a ticket, but unfortunately the situation is much the same: if you are the employed (athlete) and you retaliate, the hammer gets dropped on you, whereas the fans get much more leaway. No one ever said life was fair. Speaking of which, Artest makes millions and millions for chucking a ball at a hoop and taking occasional abuse, and nurses barely make a living and get daily abuse. I'm sorry, but the idea that I or anyone should feel sorry for Ron Artest is laughable...at best.

 

[tibor75]

This is not directed to anyone or posts in particular.


I think about what my wife has relayed to me over the years she was a floor nurse at several Columbus area hospitals. Many families and some patients were emotionally, psychologically, and yes physically abusive, but the repurcussions would come down only on the nurses if they ever did anything that could even be construed as retaliation. I agree that the fans throwing stuff at players should be thrown out and in fact humiliated (in front of the arena at the least, on TV too if you want), and in egregious cases never be allowed to return or buy a ticket, but unfortunately the situation is much the same: if you are the employed (athlete) and you retaliate, the hammer gets dropped on you, whereas the fans get much more leaway. No one ever said life was fair. Speaking of which, Artest makes millions and millions for chucking a ball at a hoop and taking occasional abuse, and nurses barely make a living and get daily abuse. I'm sorry, but the idea that I or anyone should feel sorry for Ron Artest is laughable...at best.

don't forget that Artest can return to his job at the same salary in one year. Would that ever happen to a regular working shmoe who was suspended from his job for assulting somebody else?

 

[buckzip]

Artest is a fucking thug...
He not only should be suspended for the rest of the year, but next year too.

He is a huge athlete. He could have killed someone if he landed any of those punched to the right spot. The fact that he hit innocent bystanders means he should be arrested.

 

[Bucklion]

Good point tibor.


And yes zip, I think he will eventually be charged, and will definitely get sued.

 

[Clarity]

Can't disagree with anything said since my last post. Nope, can't feel bad for a spoiled millionaire athlete who has to face consequences for his actions. Yep, while I feel the entire season *might* be excessive for the league to hand down, it's not like he's going to suffer deeply. I suspect he has at least enough money to kick back and enjoy a season off, even if it is forced, and it's not like he won't be making bank again next year when he returns. And yes, battery is battery, the law should have something to say about a number of things that went on in the fracas, Artest's involvement probably tops the list.

 

[jwinslow]

I think Artests punishment was really harsh, but fair.

Why did ONeal get 25 out of the 30 games that Jackson got? Jackson hopped into the stands too and started swinging.

All ONeal did was come to defend his teammates from the two fans that came out and took on Artest (artest beat one of em down then was pulled away).

At first I thought that was security pulling the challenger back, but it was just fans. ONeal probably should have held up and not punched the guy, but he wasn't running into the stands. A player came into "his area" obviously looking for a fight.

We wouldn't blame a fan for hitting a player if the player came into the stands looking for a brawl. So why are we suspending him almost identically to Jackson?

I think ONeal should have received 15 max.

 

[vrbryant]

Too much stuff here since my last post to reply to it all, so I'll just rattle off what comes to mind.

I'm still 100% with the players, and I would prefer it if their rights were coming first in this issue. I will never say that Artest et al shouldn't be punished, but the fact that the incident following the on-court scuffle was provoked entirely (and worsened further) by the fans leaves me wondering why it is that the players will get the harsher deal here. Even after Artest - this 'beastly thug' of a man - charged in, more beverages were thrown, sucker punches were dealt to his and Jones' heads, etc. etc. I still maintain the opinion that Artest being sat down for the season (which is basically a $5.5 million fine) is excessive. He and Jackson should have received similar punishments, and I think 30 games is appropriate. I still maintain that Jermaine O'Neal should have received little to no punishment. Ben Wallace's six game suspension is fine. His overreaction to Artest's foul is what really started the whole thing.

I want to quote on of my earlier posts now, 'cause I'm too tired and lazy to rewrite the same point:

The next time a fan - drunk, angry and about to leave the game anyway - wants to throw something at a player, he will have basically no reservations about doing so. He'll be just as aware of the consequences of his actions as this fan was, only he'll know that there will be no risk of real punishment (getting his face beaten in). I'm clearly not saying that it should go into the rule book that players ought to respond like that, nor am I saying that such an action should go without serious punishment. Perhaps my initial feeling that one game suspensions would be sufficient was hasty. The season? That's absurd. If the league brings the hammer down on these players the way it sounds like they intend to, I fear for the future of fan/player interaction, and for the future of the NBA. These guys get suspended for the year, and I smell a strike. It simply makes no sense.

*sniff* Hmm. Haven't heard a mention of it yet, but I do smell something cooking in the player's union. There would be if I were gov of the outfit. Maybe not a strike, but somebody needs to be considering the rights of the players.

Final thought...I've been trying real hard to liken this whole situation to something. A nice, clean metaphor that sort of draws in crayon how I view the issue. The best I've got is this:

A boy is walking down the street past a junkyard and spies a mean old hulk of a dog chained to a tree. The boy is piss drunk and salty about his local hoops team just getting slapped around, so he decides to throw what's left of his beer at the dog. The dog, of course, takes offense, and charges. He charges so hard, in fact, that the chain snaps, he runs the little spindly-legged tyke down and tears him to pieces. Now, obviously the dog wasn't supposed to leave the junkyard, but are you gonna feel good about having to put him down? 'cause I sure ain't.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

id like for everybody's boss to have people pay them to come watch them work and boo whenever they fuck up. then have one of them throw a beer at you. how are you going to react?

thought so.

He is a huge athlete. He could have killed someone if he landed any of those punched to the right spot. The fact that he hit innocent bystanders means he should be arrested.

maybe the pussy who threw the beer at him should have thought about that before he threw it. all the while thinking, he cant come hurt me, ill be a big pussy and hide behind david stern and throw my beer on a guy who just kicked my teams ass.

did artest get the right guy? doesnt look like it. but if he had, then what would you say?

 

[tibor75]

id like for everybody's boss to have people pay them to come watch them work and boo whenever they fuck up. then have one of them throw a beer at you. how are you going to react?

that's a stupid argument. Try working as a nurse...or a doctorb in a inner city hospital...or a bartender in a trashy bar...or a waiter at a snobby restaurant...or a cable TV representative manning the phones. Yeah, and none of these people make 5 million a year. Spare me the tears for these multi millionaire babies if they can't take it being booed.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

that's a stupid argument. Try working as a nurse...or a doctorb in a inner city hospital...or a bartender in a trashy bar...or a waiter at a snobby restaurant...or a cable TV representative manning the phones. Yeah, and none of these people make 5 million a year. Spare me the tears for these multi millionaire babies if they can't take it being booed.

thats a stupid argument. who said they couldnt take being booed? who said their salary had anything to do with it.

just because fans hold them to a higher regard than everybody else doesnt mean they are up there. their high salaries have nothing to do with this.

fans at a sporting event arent your regular customers, so stop equating it to that. they are paying to come watch you. they dont want you to do anything for them, they are just watching you. every single fan who ran to the entrance of the locker room to dump their beer on the coaches and players should have their heads smashed off the floor. fucking pussies.