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LOTR, Hobbit geek-fest

Everyone do yourself a favor and don't even try to watch any of the previous versions of The Hobbit and/or Lord of the Rings movies. They're utterly awful. Ralph Bakshi should be locked in a room somewhere and forced to watch that abomination until his end.





Regarding Tom Bombadil, it's hard to say who/what he is. Let's review what we know: Bombadil is very, very, very old. He's lived in that general area of the world for ages and ages, near as anyone can tell. That's an important clue, because in the Second Age (the events of The Hobbit & LOTR occur in the Third Age) Sauron was even more powerful than he was during LOTR. He had a huge army, overran all of Eriador (where The Shire is, basically everything west of the Misty Mountains) and overthrew everything there (an Elvish kingdom), and laid siege to both the Grey Havens and Rivendell. Despite this near utter control of the region, there is zero mention of any capture of Bombadil or any flight by him away. He just seems to have remained where he was and nobody bothered him.

Jump-cut to "modern day" and Frodo and Co. go bumbling about the Old Forest, get captured by Old Man Willow, but then quite easily rescued by Tom Bombadil - who rescues them by singing a song - and then invites them over for supper. The song is also a clue, since we're told that in the very beginning of all things, creation was made by a song - the song of Illuvatar and the Eldar. Songs are powerful, and the powerful use songs.

So we're at Bombadil's house, rescued from the Willow, and the topic of the Ring comes up. Frodo tries to trick Tom by putting the Ring on and sneaking out of the room, but Tom sees him despite the Ring's power and then demonstrates that the Ring has no power over him with some basic parlor tricks.

To understand all this, we must first understand several other things. First, what is the Ring? The Ring is, simply put, the manifestation of the greater part of Sauron's power. What is Sauron? Saurons is a Maia, one of the "angels," if you will, of the first creation, second only in power to the Valar. The Valar are, of course, the Lords of Arda (creation), demigods ruling over Arda for Illuvatar, The One, the greatest being who began all things. So that puts Sauron in context, but it's also important to note that, among Maiar, Sauron was the most powerful. Gandalf and Saruman were also Maiar, but far less powerful than Sauron. The Balrog was also a Maia, but Gandalf overthrew him in single combat, so that puts some context in the order of Maiar. Gandalf was a badass, but Sauron would have taken him in the fourth round, probably by knockout. No TKO; he'd just put him down.

So the Ring is the manifestation of the greater part of the might of one of the most mighty beings on Middle-Earth, and as such a tremendously powerful artifact. Yet it has no power over Bombadil. Why is this? There are several possible answers. One deals with Tom's description of himself as "the oldest." Tom says that he was there before anyone else, anything else. Combine that knowledge with Tom's use of song as power, and his complete indifference to the Ring and its power, and you have very few conclusions available to you. Namely:

1. Tom is one of the Valar. This is a common theory, but as with all of these theories, it is not supported by fact. The Ring would have no power over a Vala. Valar are known to use songs as power. Tom is not only stronger than the creatures (sometimes terrible creatures) around him, but completely unafraid of them and unaffected by them. One of the Valar theories says that Tom is actually Aule, the Vala of "making," closely associated with the world and nature. In that context, Goldberry would be Yavanna, another Vala wholly connected with growing things. This theory has merit, but the problem with it is Galdor's statement in the Council of Elrond that (paraphrasing) "The power to withstand [Sauron] is not in him." If Bombadil were Aule he could most certainly withstand Sauron - in fact, Aule was at one time Sauron's chief, before Sauron "went to the dark side" with Morgoth. Aule would crush Sauron like a bug. So Bombadil is not Aule. Further, we're told that once the Lamps were destroyed in the First Age (read The Silmarillion), the Valar didn't come to Middle-Earth much at all - yet Tom lives there, and has lived there for Ages. So the likelihood that Tom is a Vala is pretty slim.

2. Bombadil is Illuvatar. This is pretty easily dismissed, as Illuvatar, the Greatest of Gods, The One, the Grand High Poobah of All, never entered his creation. This theory has less legs than the Vala theory.

3. Bombadil is Arda itself. Or, more clearly, Bombadil is a manifestation of Arda, a spirit born of the very existence of Arda. This has some merit thanks to Tom's assertion that he was there "first," but there's pretty much no other evidence to support this.

There are several more theories. I'd jot down more, but I'm running out of time, so I'll wrap up with this - in his copious notes and letters, Tolkien discloses several things about Bombadil. He says that Bombadil (as with many other things in his stories) was first a plaything of his children, a toy that he wanted to include in his story to amuse his kids. So that's the mundane beginning of the Bombadil idea, but it doesn't tell us much.

And that's where every search ends. With "not much." And that's intentional, at least on the part of Tolkien, because he stated on more than one occasion that every story should have some questions that are left unanswered. He believed strongly in myth, and that the maintenance of "things unknown" was important. Tolkien himself claims to have known who/what Bombadil is, but he also took that knowledge to the grave - or, at least, anyone he's told (like Christopher, perhaps), isn't telling.

And I doubt we'll ever truly know.
 
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knapplc;2188558; said:
And that's where every search ends. With "not much." And that's intentional, at least on the part of Tolkien, because he stated on more than one occasion that every story should have some questions that are left unanswered. He believed strongly in myth, and that the maintenance of "things unknown" was important. Tolkien himself claims to have known who/what Bombadil is, but he also took that knowledge to the grave - or, at least, anyone he's told (like Christopher, perhaps), isn't telling.

And I doubt we'll ever truly know.

I think that is the point, Bombadil is SUPPOSED to be an enigma that doesn't really fit with anything else in the story. There is no answer to what he is because there isn't supposed to be. In a world where everything is so clearly defined with layers upon layers upon layers of backstory you have this one enigma who doesn't fit into anything, and I think that was the point. This is why I agree Peter Jackson was right to leave him out in the movies...the concept of Bombadil translates much better into written work then it would into a movie where it would just tend to confuse people trying to follow the story and not really make much sense as to why he was included. It would have been a very difficult character to pull off.
 
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Personally, I believe Bombadil is the incarnation of the spirit of the Shire--not just the Shire of the Hobbits, but the spirit of that region of Middle Earth since the beginning of time. Works somewhat along the lines of him being Arda, but just more localized...as if he is one of many such incarnated spirits that
 
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buckeyegrad;2188657; said:
Personally, I believe Bombadil is the incarnation of the spirit of the Shire--not just the Shire of the Hobbits, but the spirit of that region of Middle Earth since the beginning of time. Works somewhat along the lines of him being Arda, but just more localized...as if he is one of many such incarnated spirits that

I agree with this: I always read Bombadil as somewhat equivalent to the Faerie of English North Country legend, part of but also in a way the source of the region's playfully magical spirit.
 
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knapplc;2188558; said:
Regarding Tom Bombadil, it's hard to say who/what he is. Let's review what we know: Bombadil is very, very, very old. He's lived in that general area of the world for ages and ages, near as anyone can tell. That's an important clue, because in the Second Age (the events of The Hobbit & LOTR occur in the Third Age) Sauron was even more powerful than he was during LOTR. He had a huge army, overran all of Eriador (where The Shire is, basically everything west of the Misty Mountains) and overthrew everything there (an Elvish kingdom), and laid siege to both the Grey Havens and Rivendell. Despite this near utter control of the region, there is zero mention of any capture of Bombadil or any flight by him away. He just seems to have remained where he was and nobody bothered him.

Maybe a LOTR noob question here, but how do we know that Bombadil was even alive in the second age? No mention of him being captured or fleeing - maybe he hadn't gotten there, yet? Maybe he wasn't even "born" yet?
 
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Zurp;2188769; said:
Maybe a LOTR noob question here, but how do we know that Bombadil was even alive in the second age? No mention of him being captured or fleeing - maybe he hadn't gotten there, yet? Maybe he wasn't even "born" yet?

From LOTR's, there is this quote: "'Eldest, that's what I am... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'"

The Dark Lord here refers to Melkor (Morgoth), who entered Arda (i.e. the created world) from the outside long before the first age.
 
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New theory,

Tom=
TomHarmon_display_image.jpg



Bombadil is just an alias, I mean the guy got a standing ovation at the Shoe as a Michigan player...he must have had some kind of special voodoo type shit going on.
 
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buckeyegrad;2188657; said:
Personally, I believe Bombadil is the incarnation of the spirit of the Shire--not just the Shire of the Hobbits, but the spirit of that region of Middle Earth since the beginning of time. Works somewhat along the lines of him being Arda, but just more localized...as if he is one of many such incarnated spirits that

See I believe Bombadil is what he started as...a character based on a toy doll that Tolkien made up silly stories about for his kids. Later he just couldn't stop himself from shoehorning that character into the world he had created.

Tolkien essentially admitted as much.
 
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Muck;2189282; said:
See I believe Bombadil is what he started as...a character based on a toy doll that Tolkien made up silly stories about for his kids. Later he just couldn't stop himself from shoehorning that character into the world he had created.

Tolkien essentially admitted as much.

All of that is true, but regardless of his literary origins, we still find him in Middle Earth and thus he must fit the cosmology of the story. Granted, Tolkien never answered the question himself, hence why any conversation is speculation; but there are answers that fit better than others.

After all, the barrow wights find their origin in the pre-LOTR stories of Bombadil, but they also fit perfectly in Middle Earth's cosmology as dark spirits dispersed by the Witch-King during his reign from Angmar.
 
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buckeyegrad;2189306; said:
All of that is true, but regardless of his literary origins, we still find him in Middle Earth and thus he must fit the cosmology of the story.

See that is a conceit I don't have. I have never felt a need to shoehorn parts of stories into a fit that the author never intended.
 
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