Level of Expectations (Merged)

[crazybuckfan40]

First... as always... great post 21.

To me its not scheme, play calling or personnel... though I would argue that we might have some maturity issues with said personnel... to me its attitude.

The D goes out there to kick ass... and they do... top to bottom.

The Offense... I don't know what the hell they are doing most of the time... the play tight most of the time, it seems.. and they just don't-- as a unit-- have "it."

I would jsut prefer that we took the attitude that we're going to go out and kick peopl's butts... knock them in the mouth and see what happens.

Its not gong to matter who's the Quaerterback or who's calling the plays or who's going deep or who's running the ball if we play like a bunch of pansies every other week.

As far as blame... it always starts with the coaches... this is college football... but... the players have to be held accountable (by the coaches... not the fans) for their performances... but if I had to criticize one thing... its just an overall lack of intensity/urgency by the staff and players on the offensive side of the football...

The talent will take care of itself... but if we're going lose on the scoreboard, at least win the fight...

Just to give an opposing view point. When Coop was the coach we came out and kicked the snot out of lesser opponents and then froze up in big games.

I too would like to see a little more excitement, but I think they just take on the coaches calm demeaner, which isnt always a bad thing. A cooler head down the stretch is better than just being fired up and not ready to make the play.

 

[kaligula]

I wouldn't say that was quite accurate about Coop...

Just to give an opposing view point. When Coop was the coach we came out and kicked the snot out of lesser opponents and then froze up in big games.

I too would like to see a little more excitement, but I think they just take on the coaches calm demeaner, which isnt always a bad thing. A cooler head down the stretch is better than just being fired up and not ready to make the play.

OSU under Coop won plenty of big games, including beating 2 AP Top 5 nonconference opponents on the road. True, 95,96 against Michigan and 98 against MSU were the 3 games that turned what would have otherwise been an excellent legacy (costing 2 likely NCs) into a "couldn't win the big game" legacy. But those 3 losses were against inferior teams.

Coop lost a lot of meaningless bowl games to SEC teams down in Florida, but won the ones that counted: the Rose Bowl and the BCS Bowl(Sugar Bowl).

By all rights, OSU should have least shared in the 96 NC with 1-loss Florida, who got the AP and Coaches nod by winning a revenge game (remember Big 10 was not in the so-called Bowl Coalition, which created a bias against the Big 10; the same bias which cost PSU a NC in 94).

In 1998, by all rights, OSU still should have been selected to play Tenn. in the Fiesta Bowl over FSU. That year, except for one inexplicable quarter (that started with a fluke bounce off Clement's back on a punt return), that team clearly was the best team by far. Dominating team. Great defense and a great offense.

 

[BUCKYLE]

OSU under Coop won plenty of big games, including beating 2 AP Top 5 nonconference opponents on the road. True, 95,96 against Michigan and 98 against MSU were the 3 games that turned what would have otherwise been an excellent legacy (costing 2 likely NCs) into a "couldn't win the big game" legacy. But those 3 losses were against inferior teams.

3 LOSSES? I see what you are saying, but 2-10-1. scUM is a big game too.

 

[kaligula]

OSU runs a zone blocking scheme...

When is the last time you saw our offensive line knock a decent defensive line off the ball?

Don't get me wrong, I love what Tressel has done here. We have great skill players and the best defense in college football. We have a top ten class of recruits every year, but without a smash mouth offensive line we will lose one or two games a year to speedy defenses.

Look at our NC season, we ran the ball with authority. We ran at and over teams because our line was able to get a push. Imagine what this team could do with just a good offensive line.

BTW, if you disagree with me fine, I love a good debate. I will not give you bad reputation points simply because I disagree with your view points. I hope in the future to get the same kind of treatment.

It's not a man, drive blocking scheme. It's more of a lateral, create seams or gaps in the defense and requires a RB with good vision to find the gap and then make the quick cut. In 2002, when healthy, Clarett excelled in this scheme. But Ross and Hall never seemed to fare as well.

Bollman brought this scheme with him from the NFL. It's certainly not designed for a behemoth, smash mouth lineman prototype. Rather it requires agile, mobile (usually smaller players) with good lateral movement.

The NFL is the copycat league and unless the NFL outlaws the cut-block, the zone blocking scheme will be the trend, which means if you use it at the college level, your lineman that go on to the NFL will be prepared to make early contributions, since this scheme typically takes more time to fully grasp. And, of course, that's exactly what you want quality OL recruiting prospects to see when they are considering Ohio State.

 

[kaligula]

A NC or two would have cast that record in a better light...

3 LOSSES? I see what you are saying, but 2-10-1. scUM is a big game too.

Of course, that also implies 4-8-1 rather than 2-10-1. Considering the first 4 years or so during the Cooper era, OSU was not at the same talent level as Michigan, I believe Buckeye Nation could have tolerated 4-8-1 with a National Championship or two.

 

[BUCKYLE]

Of course, that also implies 4-8-1 rather than 2-10-1. Considering the first 4 years or so during the Cooper era, OSU was not at the same talent level as Michigan, I believe Buckeye Nation could have tolerated 4-8-1 with a National Championship or two.

so, with that logic, 1-3 with 1 NC under JT would suffice? I somehow think that wouldnt be so.

 

[kaligula]

That's not what I'm saying...

so, with that logic, 1-3 with 1 NC under JT would suffice? I somehow think that wouldnt be so.

Cooper had to rebuild the program, Tressel did not. The cupboard was bare when Coop took the reigns and it took him about 4 years of quality recruiting to rebuild the program to the same talent level as Michigan.

If Coop had won those 3 games I mentioned, I'm saying that most reasonable people would readily forgive the early domination by Michigan for a rebuilt program with the talent that was competing for and winning National Championships.

 

[BUCKYLE]

Ok, I see where youre coming from but...

coop did not win those games, and tOSU also lost a "bcs" bowl game in the sugar bowl against fla st. so his reputation of not winning the big game is not only fair, but accurate.

 

[lvbuckeye]

As for the offensive line, they hold their own at times, but when is the last time we had a dominant performance by our offensive line?

specifically, or over the course of the season? the O-line blew Iowa 5 yards off the ball nearly every snap. i am not foolish enough to expect to see that every single game, though i watch enough college football to see that there are a a ton of teams that have a clue on O (of which Ohio State is not one), and i am cognizant of the fact that defense only wins championships if the offense can generate some fucking points...

what i saw last night was a WILDLY inconsistant approach without any sense of purpose or strategy... they were running the ball with some success, then for some inexplicable reason, the run was nearly abandoned. WTF is up with that? but then, in the final two minutes of each half, i saw the O finally try to move the ball-- and, GASP! it worked!!!... what was wrong with trying to score the rest of the half? do the coaches think there's some kind of switch? it was evident by the final drive of the first half, and until the fumble, the final drive of the game that the O COULD move the ball, but i didn't see that happening during the rest of the game. i saw Tressel content to sit on the ball until the final two minutes... to me, that is a bit baffling. do you not DECREASE your odds of a win if you try to boil the whole game down to one or two possessions? i mean that seriously.

but anyway, i am not looking for 500 yards per game, though i am well aware of the fact that the '98 O averaged 300 yards passing and 200 yards rushing on the season... i assume you can do the math.

all i want to see is some form of consistency, which has been sorely lacking for 5 years now. coincidentally, how long has Bollman been the OC?

Tressel told us that the '3 yards and a booming punt" offense was gone this season, and i believed it. i won't be fooled again.

i read a stat on BN which detailed the average scoring offense of each MNC team over the last 25 years. '02 Ohio State averaged fewer points than EVERY OTHER TEAM on that list... granted, all those teams had great D's as well, but at some point the O must be able to bail you out... you cannot try to distill a game into one critical play and expect to have consistant success... and that's what Tressel tries to do.

if anything, in retrospect, the '02 season becomes more and more impressive every day for the simple fact that Krenzel came through every single time.

i guess my point is that it shouldn't have to come down to one play every game. you can't just sit on the ball and hope that the other team blows it. because one day YOU are going to blow it, and you will have squandered all your opportunities.

and to me, that's why we lost to Penn State.

and please, for the love of God, don't preach to me about 'we.' i had to deal with asshole Penn State alums all night telling me that I suck because i'm a Buckeye.

 

[crazybuckfan40]

OSU under Coop won plenty of big games, including beating 2 AP Top 5 nonconference opponents on the road. True, 95,96 against Michigan and 98 against MSU were the 3 games that turned what would have otherwise been an excellent legacy (costing 2 likely NCs) into a "couldn't win the big game" legacy. But those 3 losses were against inferior teams.

Coop lost a lot of meaningless bowl games to SEC teams down in Florida, but won the ones that counted: the Rose Bowl and the BCS Bowl(Sugar Bowl).

By all rights, OSU should have least shared in the 96 NC with 1-loss Florida, who got the AP and Coaches nod by winning a revenge game (remember Big 10 was not in the so-called Bowl Coalition, which created a bias against the Big 10; the same bias which cost PSU a NC in 94).

In 1998, by all rights, OSU still should have been selected to play Tenn. in the Fiesta Bowl over FSU. That year, except for one inexplicable quarter (that started with a fluke bounce off Clement's back on a punt return), that team clearly was the best team by far. Dominating team. Great defense and a great offense.

I don't know how you are not counting scUM as a big game. That was wrong for Coop not to make it a big game and no matter what bowl game you are in it is a big game. He sucked in the scUM game and bowl games. End of story that is why he got fired. Same reason why Texas has been hard on Mack, but he is coming through so far this year.

specifically, or over the course of the season? the O-line blew Iowa 5 yards off the ball nearly every snap. i am not foolish enough to expect to see that every single game, though i watch enough college football to see that there are a a ton of teams that have a clue on O (of which Ohio State is not one), and i am cognizant of the fact that defense only wins championships if the offense can generate some fucking points...

what i saw last night was a WILDLY inconsistant approach without any sense of purpose or strategy... they were running the ball with some success, then for some inexplicable reason, the run was nearly abandoned. WTF is up with that? but then, in the final two minutes of each half, i saw the O finally try to move the ball-- and, GASP! it worked!!!... what was wrong with trying to score the rest of the half? do the coaches think there's some kind of switch? it was evident by the final drive of the first half, and until the fumble, the final drive of the game that the O COULD move the ball, but i didn't see that happening during the rest of the game. i saw Tressel content to sit on the ball until the final two minutes... to me, that is a bit baffling. do you not DECREASE your odds of a win if you try to boil the whole game down to one or two possessions? i mean that seriously.

but anyway, i am not looking for 500 yards per game, though i am well aware of the fact that the '98 O averaged 300 yards passing and 200 yards rushing on the season... i assume you can do the math.

all i want to see is some form of consistency, which has been sorely lacking for 5 years now. coincidentally, how long has Bollman been the OC?

Tressel told us that the '3 yards and a booming punt" offense was gone this season, and i believed it. i won't be fooled again.

i read a stat on BN which detailed the average scoring offense of each MNC team over the last 25 years. '02 Ohio State averaged fewer points than EVERY OTHER TEAM on that list... granted, all those teams had great D's as well, but at some point the O must be able to bail you out... you cannot try to distill a game into one critical play and expect to have consistant success... and that's what Tressel tries to do.

if anything, in retrospect, the '02 season becomes more and more impressive every day for the simple fact that Krenzel came through every single time.

i guess my point is that it shouldn't have to come down to one play every game. you can't just sit on the ball and hope that the other team blows it. because one day YOU are going to blow it, and you will have squandered all your opportunities.

and to me, that's why we lost to Penn State.

and please, for the love of God, don't preach to me about 'we.' i had to deal with asshole Penn State alums all night telling me that I suck because i'm a Buckeye.

He Lv, I think you always make good points, but we always seem to have opposite view points. :)

I really do not think we sat on the ball all game. There were just different things that killed our drives. Penalties, missed blocks, and Sacks.

If I remember correctly we threw down the field as in for the homerun 3 times. If we complete one or two of them passes we are not talking about this right now.

There was also a reverse to Ginn that sucked and the time we run the sweep with Ginn.

We also were trying to pass alot which tells me a coach is not sitting on the ball. We ran the same type of plays that we ran on the last drives of the half all game. They just put them together better then.

Don't ask me why. My explanation is poor exectution and a great defense and overall just sloopy play.

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[lvbuckeye]

I don't know how you are not counting scUM as a big game. That was wrong for Coop not to make it a big game and no matter what bowl game you are in it is a big game. He sucked in the scUM game and bowl games. End of story that is why he got fired. Same reason why Texas has been hard on Mack, but he is coming through so far this year.



He Lv, I think you always make good points, but we always seem to have opposite view points. :)

I really do not think we sat on the ball all game. There were just different things that killed our drives. Penalties, missed blocks, and Sacks.

If I remember correctly we threw down the field as in for the homerun 3 times. If we complete one or two of them passes we are not talking about this right now.

There was also a reverse to Ginn that sucked and the time we run the sweep with Ginn.

We also were trying to pass alot which tells me a coach is not sitting on the ball. We ran the same type of plays that we ran on the last drives of the half all game. They just put them together better then.

Don't ask me why. My explanation is poor exectution and a great defense and overall just sloopy play.

okay... i can see that... however, the O looked pretty damn crisp on the TD drive, and on the last drive before the fumble... i think my point is that there is no sense of urgency during a very large portion of the game... to my eyes, the O just went through the motions for the large part, and expected to be able to make the key drive when they had to... my argument is that maybe if they had played the entire first half with the same intensity as the last drive, they wouldn't have been in a 14-3 hole in the first place... i hate to say it, but when Penn State intecepted that ball, I KNEW that we would lose...

actually, i'm pretty sure i called it on Thursday after i read the comments from the players... they were too relaxed, too sure of themselves, and too overconfident... what i want to see is the same unbridled intensity on offense that i see on D... until i see that, i see an offense that will continue to underachieve and underperform...

all too often over the last three seasons, i read comments that the O is this close to bringing it all together... what i have NOT seen is the O actually get there... and to me that comes from a lack of intensity on the part of the coaching staff with regards to playing excellent offense, which naturally trickles down to the team...

if Northwestern can hang 29 on Penn State, there is NO EXCUSE why Ohio State can only manage 10 lousy points...

intensity.

 

[crazybuckfan40]

okay... i can see that... however, the O looked pretty damn crisp on the TD drive, and on the last drive before the fumble... i think my point is that there is no sense of urgency during a very large portion of the game... to my eyes, the O just went through the motions for the large part, and expected to be able to make the key drive when they had to... my argument is that maybe if they had played the entire first half with the same intensity as the last drive, they wouldn't have been in a 14-3 hole in the first place... i hate to say it, but when Penn State intecepted that ball, I KNEW that we would lose...

actually, i'm pretty sure i called it on Thursday after i read the comments from the players... they were too relaxed, too sure of themselves, and too overconfident... what i want to see is the same unbridled intensity on offense that i see on D... until i see that, i see an offense that will continue to underachieve and underperform...

all too often over the last three seasons, i read comments that the O is this close to bringing it all together... what i have NOT seen is the O actually get there... and to me that comes from a lack of intensity on the part of the coaching staff with regards to playing excellent offense, which naturally trickles down to the team...

if Northwestern can hang 29 on Penn State, there is NO EXCUSE why Ohio State can only manage 10 lousy points...

intensity.

The o did look crisp on their td drive, but so did PSU and no one here is criticizing our d. There are adjustments being made the whole game, it is a game of chess, sometimes you win sometimes you lose, but when they have a good defense out on the field a good defense trumps an above avergae offense most of the times, unless you can hit some big plays, which we tried for, but didnt execute.

As for NW I am sure they hit some big plays, PSU might have had some blown assignments and some missed tackles and it is a lot easier to score when you are at home.

As for the too relaxed comments, some players get up for the games in different ways. I have seen people sleep up until game time and come out and have the game of thier lives or things like that. Chad Johnson talks more shit b4 each game every week and he seems to be able to perform just fine every week. If we hit a couple long passes and don't throw an int caused by the biggest play of the game we are not even having this conversation today.

 

[jwinslow]

most of the trash talking was by the defense, and i think they lived up to their talk.

 

[WestEnd]

all too often over the last three seasons, i read comments that the O is this close to bringing it all together... what i have NOT seen is the O actually get there... and to me that comes from a lack of intensity on the part of the coaching staff with regards to playing excellent offense, which naturally trickles down to the team...

if Northwestern can hang 29 on Penn State, there is NO EXCUSE why Ohio State can only manage 10 lousy points...

No truer words have graced my computer screen in the last few days. Only in the paragraph above the bold one I would replace "intensity" with "expectations".

Since when has it become not a total and complete outrage to the coaching staff that our offense play like absolute SHIT? I don't care whether or not you think it's the player development at QB, the play-calling, the overall scheme, the selection of which players should be on the field, the offensive line play, the in-game adjustments, etc. etc. etc.

I know that this coaching staff has much higher expectations for the offense than what they've seen on the field the last two years (minus michigan and OkSt.) I've read qoutes from tressel both last year and this where he talks about "setting goals" for the team, and they are very specific and quantifiable (ie average 200 yds rushing/game). That's great and everything, but the whole point of setting goals is to monitor progress. If you don't meat the goals, then you fix the problem that is keeping you from meeting those goals. Well something is keeping this team from reaching it's goals, and it needs to be fixed. We are not just barely falling short of these goals. we are drastically falling short. This either means that drastic changes need to be made in order to meet those goals or those goals are not really being strived after like they should.

 

[scarletngrey11]

No truer words have graced my computer screen in the last few days. Only in the paragraph above the bold one I would replace "intensity" with "expectations".

Since when has it become not a total and complete outrage to the coaching staff that our offense play like absolute SHIT? I don't care whether or not you think it's the player development at QB, the play-calling, the overall scheme, the selection of which players should be on the field, the offensive line play, the in-game adjustments, etc. etc. etc.

I know that this coaching staff has much higher expectations for the offense than what they've seen on the field the last two years (minus michigan and OkSt.) I've read qoutes from tressel both last year and this where he talks about "setting goals" for the team, and they are very specific and quantifiable (ie average 200 yds rushing/game). That's great and everything, but the whole point of setting goals is to monitor progress. If you don't meat the goals, then you fix the problem that is keeping you from meeting those goals. Well something is keeping this team from reaching it's goals, and it needs to be fixed. We are not just barely falling short of these goals. we are drastically falling short. This either means that drastic changes need to be made in order to meet those goals or those goals are not really being strived after like they should.

Come on now, 29 points in a game where the opposing offense has 5 turnovers isnt that tough,PSU turned the ball over 5 times that game.