Jim Tressel (National Champion, ex-President, Youngstown State University, CFB HOF)

[Jaxbuck]

You don't think it's ridiculous to compare today to the end of the Cooper era? Allow me to refresh your memory about a time when OSU couldn't beat Michigan, never won the Big Ten outright, had serious academic and chemistry issues and had 10 losses in Cooper's last two years... You cannot legitimately compare Tressel's stubborn offensive philosophies to the endemic problems that wracked the program in the "last few years of Cooper".

Finally catching up with national sentiment is no reason to turn on the man who will possibly finish as our best coach ever with another decade of "Tresselball", whatever form it may take.

I was comparing the way a hardcore set of fans refused to admit any issues with Cooper but when the losing didn't stop he eventually caught 9 kinds of hell. My coments were about the reactions of the fan base being similar not the state of the program under the two coaches.

If you read more than the first line of my post its actually quite clear.

 

[osugrad21]

You dont think Pryor is more talented than Barkley? USC's RB talent right now is insane, but is the LB corp as deep as Ohio States?
Obviously each team is going to have its strengths and weaknesses...
Talent is not the reason they lost the game.

...but are we comparing talented as in athleticism or polished QB? But I'll give you Pryor as 1...now run back over the last few years and compare QBs.

LB depth is irrelevant...we know tOSU will have a great D. The D is set. Everyone complains about the offense.

Compare the offensive side of the ball. WRs might be close...after that, where does tOSU touch USC?

Now I know where the argument goes here, the coaches do the recruiting.

I agree...but I also know an offense is limited by its parts.

Again, Im not at all saying there is not a need for change...but this simplification of the issue always bothers me.

 

[jwinslow]

You dont think Pryor is more talented than Barkley?

No, I don't. A better athlete doesn't mean he's a more talented qb.

Personally I disagree with that. I think the talent level at tOSU is at worst equal to any of the top teams in the country. Just look at the NFL if you want proof.

The last time OSU had NFL talent up front, they won a title. There was a drought in 06, 07 & 08 (given Brew's age). OSU finally has some NFL talent up front again, some starting, some pushing the starters, and look what happened against a great bunch of athletes.

USC's RB talent right now is insane, but is the LB corp as deep as Ohio States?

With the players that contribute? Yes. Spitler is serviceable, Homan is solid not great, and Rolle is a ballhawk but undersized.

 

[strohs]

Compare the offensive side of the ball. WRs might be close...after that, where does tOSU touch USC?

Now I know where the argument goes here, the coaches do the recruiting.

I agree...but I also know an offense is limited by its parts.

Well, USC obviously wins RB, the WR/TE/QB are all basically a wash in my opinion, so that leaves the OL.
I dont know enough to say who has more talent, but I do know that OSU's DL completely neutralized any talent gap there may have been there, plus I though the OSU OL played well.
That, in my opinion, leaves the scheme as the only gap between the two offenses.
I think its obvious who I believe wins that battle :)

 

[jwinslow]

Well, USC obviously wins RB, the WR/TE/QB are all basically a wash in my opinion, so that leaves the OL.

Sanchez <<<<<< Todd
Jake Ballard, Rory Nicol <<<< Anthony McCoy, Fred Davis.
Sanzenbacher < RoJo. The others are probably a wash. Last year was definitely in USC's favor.
Andy & Jimmy <<< Tyron & Charles

 

[morbitzerker]

I just want to get to Saturday and get a win so people may get there heads amongst them again. I don't know if there is anywhere on the internet, or if newspapers had comment sections, that doesn't make me want to my head. I don't know if I can take another three days of so much nay-saying. It's maddening.

 

[osugrad21]

Well, USC obviously wins RB, the WR/TE/QB are all basically a wash in my opinion, so that leaves the OL.
I dont know enough to say who has more talent, but I do know that OSU's DL completely neutralized any talent gap there may have been there, plus I though the OSU OL played well.
That, in my opinion, leaves the scheme as the only gap between the two offenses.
I think its obvious who I believe wins that battle :)

A wash? Palmer, Leinart, Booty, Sanchez = Krenzel, Smith, Boeckman, Pryor?

Wow.

 

[strohs]

A wash? Palmer, Leinart, Booty, Sanchez = Krenzel, Smith, Boeckman, Pryor?

Wow.

I was comparing this years teams only...

 

[UpNorthBuckeye]

Hey, after eight years, I still love Tressel. And my main reason for welcoming the change from Cooper to Tressel --- well, there are two reasons:

1.In Cooper's first season, Illinois ran a flanker reverse, stopped and threw an option pass out of it, for a touchdown. Brilliant play. The DB who got over their too late -- Bo Pelini. Cooper chased him down on the sidelines, on television, to chew him out for being out of position. Tressel would never do that. If you didn't coach 'em up by Saturday morning, then too bad, Coach.

2. Second, I just felt JT was a better fit. Ohio guy, coached at Ohio State, and knew the recruiting trails in the Midwest.

But whatever your career, if you start to shy away from change, or learning new stuff, or welcoming new ideas, then it's time to move aside.

I'm not suggesting anyone move aside, but I think JT needs to welcome change, want to learn, and embrace new ideas.

Otherwise, how long are you going to try (and fail) to live 2002 all over again?? It won't work.

I think I already got dinged for something I said the night of the USC game so please take my comments in the context of someone who LOVES Buckeye football and attended his first game against Purdue and Leroy Keyes inthe championship season --- of 19 freaking 68.

Go Bucks! Just Win, Baby!

 

[osugrad21]

I was comparing this years teams only...

I see. I guess Im just used to the usual 8 years of offense argument...

2 special RBs...1 special QB over that span. Meanwhile, USC has simply reloaded at the postions.

WRs...push even though tOSU has had arguably more success in the NFL lately.

This year...Barkley was not expected to be a huge factor and was not...Pryor was expected to be and was not.

If you want to argue scheme vs. execution with only TP's performance, I'm your huckleberry on that one bro.

 

[scarletngray]

Hey, after eight years, I still love Tressel. And my main reason for welcoming the change from Cooper to Tressel --- well, there are two reasons:

1.In Cooper's first season, Illinois ran a flanker reverse, stopped and threw an option pass out of it, for a touchdown. Brilliant play. The DB who got over their too late -- Bo Pelini. Cooper chased him down on the sidelines, on television, to chew him out for being out of position. Tressel would never do that. If you didn't coach 'em up by Saturday morning, then too bad, Coach.

2. Second, I just felt JT was a better fit. Ohio guy, coached at Ohio State, and knew the recruiting trails in the Midwest.

But whatever your career, if you start to shy away from change, or learning new stuff, or welcoming new ideas, then it's time to move aside.

I'm not suggesting anyone move aside, but I think JT needs to welcome change, want to learn, and embrace new ideas.

Otherwise, how long are you going to try (and fail) to live 2002 all over again?? It won't work.

I think I already got dinged for something I said the night of the USC game so please take my comments in the context of someone who LOVES Buckeye football and attended his first game against Purdue and Leroy Keyes inthe championship season --- of 19 freaking 68.

Go Bucks! Just Win, Baby!

The coaching staff often times goes to one or two schools (football programs) every year specifically for the purpose of learning and implementing new schemes/ideas. The pistol formation is an example of that. They also instituted the ShotGinn when Teddy was here. They have studied the spread. The list could go on and on.....

Changes in scheme/formations have been numerous. What hasn't changed is Tress' philosophy which as frustrating as it can be at times, has proven to be a winning formula.

:osu:

 

[rock454]

Off topic, but Jim Tressel is currently #5 on yahoo's top searches behind Henry Gibson, Pancreatic Cancer, Sean Penn, and Beyonce. But his offense is better than Kate Winslet and Jupiter....

 

[localyokel]

This is starting to remind me of the last few years of Cooper.

I said in my first post after the game I think Tress has reached a fork in the road. I want him to stay for as long as he wants to stay but if he digs his heels in and is perceived to be willing to hurt the program to satisfy his ego (ie refuses to make offensive coaching changes) then there is no doubt in my mind it will be his undoing at OSU. It will just be a matter of time.

Even the E-Spinners discussing this issue on Around the Horn today emphasized that Tress should definitely stay, but as head coach, conceding control of the offense to someone else--someone fresh and modern, from outside the current program.

It would be tragic if the apparent loyalty to his assistants and his system sprung from an inflexibility that he will not or cannot alter. Surely any need to control does not supercede concern for the players, the program, the school, the state? I never thought so. It is perplexing to watch from the outside, wondering what is really happening behind those perpetually heavily cloaked windows.

Devotion to a person can take a lot of forms. For some, anything other than blind, unquestioning obedience is an act of betrayal. Others think it is an obligation to confront unproductive decisions by those they value. For the latter, that's why something called an intervention exists. The uproar over Saturday's loss feels almost like a mass intervention to me. It is heartbreaking to see the same choices made again and again, and sadly, to feel that you know where those choices are leading. We all know what they say about performing the same action over and over, yet expecting a different outcome.

Thousands are talking. I only hope coach is willing to listen.

 

[scarletngray]

Even the E-Spinners discussing this issue on Around the Horn today emphasized that Tress should definitely stay, but as head coach, conceding control of the offense to someone else--someone fresh and modern, from outside the current program.

It would be tragic if the apparent loyalty to his assistants and his system sprung from an inflexibility that he will not or cannot alter. Surely any need to control does not supercede concern for the players, the program, the school, the state? I never thought so. It is perplexing to watch from the outside, wondering what is really happening behind those perpetually heavily cloaked windows.

Devotion to a person can take a lot of forms. For some, anything other than blind, unquestioning obedience is an act of betrayal. Others think it is an obligation to confront unproductive decisions by those they value. For the latter, that's why something called an intervention exists. The uproar over Saturday's loss feels almost like a mass intervention to me. It is heartbreaking to see the same choices made again and again, and sadly, to feel that you know where those choices are leading. We all know what they say about performing the same action over and over, yet expecting a different outcome.

Thousands are talking. I only hope coach is willing to listen.

The only problem with that is that most of those that are talking don't know what the hell they are talking about. So hopefully Coach won't listen.

:osu:

 

[BrutusBobcat]

Riffing off of Grad's post regarding QB and RB talent, let's take a look at talent versus season results:

2002: Krenzel, Clarett - 14-0 BCS Champions, Big Ten Champions
2003: Krenzel, Ross - 11-2 Fiesta Bowl Winner, Big Ten Runner up, only scUM loss
2004: Zwick/Smith, Ross - 8-4 Alamo Bowl Winner
2005: Smith, Pittman - 10-2 Fiesta Bowl Winner, Big Ten Champions
2006: Smith, Pittman/Wells - 12-1 Lost BCS Title Game, Big Ten Champions
2007: Boeckman, Wells - 11-2 Lost BCS Title Game, Big Ten Champions
2008: Boeckman/Pryor, Wells - 10-3 Big Ten Champions

Note that the 2004 team put exactly two Seniors in the NFL via draft: Mike Nugent and Dustin "Safety" Fox.

As grad mentioned, you see two dominant RBs, plus a solid RB who was drafted in the fourth round (Pittman). The best seasons tend to correspond to having a combination of a good or great back (2002, 2005-2008), combined with stability and experience at QB. The two "worst" seasons since 2002 are the two seasons in which QBs were changed, and as the saying goes, if you have two QBs you don't have any.

Yet despite unheralded talent at QB, Tressel still was able to go to the BCS title game with Krenzel and Boeckman. Perhaps this shows that he's better at managing average talent and getting exceptional results than he is at managing exceptional talent. Even Troy Smith, while highly rated, was not nearly as hyped coming out of HS as any of the USC QBs. In fact, USCs transfers and backups were more highly rated. See John David Booty, Rocky Hinds, and current third stringer, Mitch Mustain.

Noting that Ohio, as discussed in one of the recruiting threads, has not exactly been a hotbed of QB prospects over the past decade, it's understandable that we've lacked USC's embarrassment of riches at that position. However, Tress seems to do just fine in keeping average QBs within their limits, and in developing them to their potential.

Tressel's offense is most productive when he has a talented RB, or better yet, a pair of talented RBs. Given the current depth chart and recent recruiting, that part of the talent equation is probably safe. Again, though -- looking at USC as an example, OSU has not had the quality and depth of backs the Trojans have, despite Beanie. Clarett played for merely one season, and we don't need to rehash Lydell "Passin' Bills" Ross.

I think the offense issues are overstated. When the pieces are in place, things click. The reality is, hyperbole, chest thumping and Buckeye Pride aside, OSU has most certainly not had the level of talent on offense that other major programs have, outside of the Smith-Ginn-Pittman era, which featured a highly productive offense. If anything, Tressel has gotten more production out of less than anyone in the country. I'd like to see Pete Carroll, Norm Chow, and the creature once known as "Sarkiffin" do more with the 2003 offense, for example.