Jim Tressel (National Champion, ex-President, Youngstown State University, CFB HOF)

[LordJeffBuck]

Didn't Pete Carroll make a statement that he knew what Ohio State was going to do on offense? How is that not being out coached? Isn't that the same thing we heard after the Florida game?

Do you think that it's possible that JT knew what USC was going to run as well? In fact, prior to the game, didn't JT say that USC runs a basic scheme with a few basic plays, that they let you know what they are going to do, they just do it anyway because they are so good at it? Go back and check some pre-game articles, if you doubt me. Because Ohio State's defense basically shut down USC's offense, I think it's fair to say that Tressel essentially knew what Pete Carroll was going to do on offense.

In any event, it is clear that Carroll did not always know what Ohio State was going to run on offense. Witness the big plays in the first quarter, for which USC had no answer. In fact, on the fake bubble screen, USC overplayed the tendency (that is, they thought that they knew what was coming, but they didn't), and Ohio State got a huge play out of it.

But my arguments give your unsupported statement too much credibility. How does the conclusion "JT got out-coached" necessarily follow from the proposition (which I will assume to be true only for the sake of this discussion) "PC knew what JT was going to run"? I submit that almost every great team runs the same schemes, formations, and plays, and has the same tendencies, in almost every game. Go watch any great team over the course of a season, and you will see what I mean. Everyone knows what Florida is going to run - but few can stop it. Ditto for Oklahoma, Texas, LSU, Alabama, etc. You may like Florida's or Oklahoma's or Texas's predictable offenses more than you like Ohio State's predictable offense, but your personal preference does not lessen the predictability of those other offenses.

Talent is almost always the difference between teams ... and in a three-point game without a disparity in penalties and turnovers (like the OSU-USC game), there is no discernable difference in talent. So, with the talent being equal, why should Ohio State have varied from its basic offensive game plan? Underdogs use tricks and gimmicks and break tendencies to try to gain a competitive advantage, but if you are not the definite underdog, then why scrap what you've been doing for weeks and months and years just so that you might confuse the coach on the other sidelines? And if those tricks and gimmicks and breaking tendencies don't work, then haven't you just out-coached yourself? Again, you might not like Ohio State's offensive philosophy, but that is completely different matter from being "out-coached" on game day.

And one more thing ... if you want to be taken seriously on BP, then stop with the unsupported, conclusory arguments, namely "Here's one fact (which is really just an allegation), so I must be right." Especially if you are going to use such arguments to support a position which really just reduces to "Tressel sux!!!1!!"

 

[osugrad21]

Didn't Pete Carroll make a statement that he knew what Ohio State was going to do on offense? How is that not being out coached? Isn't that the same thing we heard after the Florida game?

Dang, imagine that...looks like tOSU knew what the Trojans were going to do on offense also eh?

Every team has tendencies, Every team watches film to expose those tendencies, Every team in America charts strong/weak, wide/short, hash, down and distance, formation and play frequency, lead/trailing tendencies, etc...

By the end of the week, usually every coach in college football has a dang good idea what the other team will do in most situations.

 

[Gatorubet]

Don't let it leave the board, but on 4th and 1 - Tebow gets the ball up the middle.

 

[Dryden]

I would put that part on the QB coach and part on TP. Mostly on TP. You would think our coaches have went over pre-snap reads. They might be spending too much time on TP foot work and throwing technique that they skipped the pre-snap reads lesson. I would not put that on JT at all.

There is a HUGE difference between making pre-snap adjustments in an afternoon practice against the scout team while wearing the no-contact jersey versus doing it in prime time in front of 106,000 fans where all the decisions at the line must be made in less than 10-15 seconds.

By all accounts, TP has been given the latitude to change the play. Why the work from Sunday-Friday doesn't translate to the desired result on Saturday is the mystery.

I think it's probably good the team is going to Cleveland this week. It's a de facto "home" game without the pressure of being in the Horseshoe.

 

[lvbuckeye]

so why can so many other teams run the same thing all the time and be good at it, yet we run the same thing all the time and are NOT good at it?

is Dave THAT hard to execute? seriously. if our offensive woes are the result of poor execution, then wouldn't it behoove the staff to run some other play that is easier to execute? even if the struggles are 100% execution and 0% poor play calls, it is STILL the responsibility of the staff, because it's their job to teach the kids how to execute the plays;

we've had what? 5 receivers taken in the first three rounds since '06,, a Heisman QB, a 1st round RB, and a 3rd round RB, yet the best we've managed was 8th in scoring? we should be a fucking juggernaut with that kind of talent, not wondering every year why our O is struggling AGAIN.

'06 was the aberration. having an O ranked in the 70s is the norm. and that's ridiculous with the kind of talent that Ohio State brings in. i'm not asking for Oklahoma circa 2008 every year, but i AM asking for an offense that can pick up a 3rd and 2 with some sort of regularity. we're 7 for 25 on 3rd down so far this season.

 

[kn1f3party]

Nothing against Coach Tressel and the staff (obligatory clarification), but they've changed their scheme and strategy and it isn't something they appear comfortable with. If you look back to the Maurice Clarett drama, the quarterback battle between Smith and Zwick, and the departure of a lot of very good offensive linemen you'll notice the coaching staff had to adjust to the situation. I think we have reached a slippery slope where we're shaping our offense around individuals rather than plugging in individuals in to our offense. I don't think this is a position the coaching staff wants to be in, but how do you break out of it?

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Don't let it leave the board, but on 4th and 1 - Tebow gets the ball up the middle.

That Urban Myer is a mastermind. I would have never had guessed 4th and 1 = Tebow time. I mean, even if I got paid millions to make football my full time... 80+ hour a week job I probably wouldn't see that.

I don't know.. but, when I see a coach win 70 - 80% of his games over a 20+ year career, I tend to think "hey, this guy seems to know what he's doing" When that same guy got to that 70-80% plateau, my thought it - why in the hell would I A) want, and B) expect - that he'll change his mind on how to win football games? Like LJB said - you don't like that it looks the way it does... and that's fine... I wouldn't' mind seeing a Cooper-esque 72-0 blow out where everything we do works. I enjoyed those beat downs. I did. Those Offenses were "fun" and all... But.. I also don't remember Michigan wondering what play would burn them this year because they hadn't seen it.... I don't remember Cooper getting the Buckeyes to the Title game, even when he headed what might have been the best Ohio State team top to bottom in my life time (1998 - we can argue it, of course, but that 98 team is in the conversation, no?)

I mean, for shit's sake... wasn't it just a couple of years ago we were all impressed that Tressel saves some play book precisely so people don't know exactly what's coming all the time? And now you want the full play book implemented in game 1? I saw that plan, it was John Cooper's plan. Fun to watch... didn't get it done at the highest level, however.

 

[LordJeffBuck]

you can be satisfied with an offense that consistently averages in the lower half of football. i am not. personally in this game, i think Tressel outcoached himself. Pete knew he was in trouble, it was written all over his face. but Tressel let him off the hook.

I am happy with a team that consistently averages 10+ wins a year, and the only "top whatever" that I am interested in is top-10 in the polls.

actually, i'm pretty much to the point where i am numb to it. i KNOW the O will generally struggle, and a KNOW that the D will generally be very good, and i KNOW that ST will be very, very good. i'm done bitching... doesn't mean that i still don't puke occasionally.

Why is it so freakin' important for Ohio State to run an offense that is a thing of beauty? Seriously....

and you are completely ignoring the point. there are times when the opposing team gives us yards on a silver platter and we don't take them. we just run Dave because, hell, we're usually pretty good when we run it all the time (neverminding the fact that we also out-talent our opponents about 85% of the time.)

No, you are completely missing the point, which is "a win is a win is a win." Why does it matter if Ohio State wins big or small, pretty or ugly? Who cares what happened three years ago? (Unless you are a closet Miami fan....)

And if talent is so important, as you claim in the final sentence, then I guess that play calling and schemes and philosophy really aren't such big issues, now are they?

look, i'm all ears. you seem to know more about football strategy then i do, so tell me why we NEVER just take the snap and throw it out to whatever receiver is out there with a 10 yard cushion and 9 guys in the box? this isn't a TP question, or a Troy question. it's an 8+ seasons of play question. if it's there, why don't we take it? and if it's not there, then i want to know why.

Look, I'm not claiming to be an expert on football strategy, and I'm not saying that you are not. I don't know why JT has a much more conservative offensive philosophy than, say, Urban Meyer or Bob Stoops or Mack Brown ... all I know is that JT's philosophy generally works. Has he had some problems in big games recently? Sure, but if we take out Florida, LSU, and USC 2008, then every other recent "big game" loss (Texas 2005, Penn State 2005, Illinois 2007, Penn State 2008, Texas 2008, and USC 2009) have been by seven points or less, and in at least four of those games (Texas 2005, Penn State 2008, Texas 2008, and USC 2009), Ohio State had a lead in the fourth quarter. In other words, if we ignore the three blow out losses (and I realize that most fans can't do so and that's why were even having this discussion right now), then Ohio State basically played the opponent "even" the other six big game match-ups ... and of those six opponents, which ones were clearly less talented that Ohio State? Illinois 2007, to be sure, but the other five teams were equal to or better than Ohio State. So, despite its lack of elegance and grace, JT's offense is generally capable of competing with the "elite" of college football. Maybe "competing" will become "beating" with a slight infusion of talent....

If Ohio State would have held on to beat USC 15-10, would any of the issues (lack of creativity, predictability, ultra-conservatism) really be any different? I say "no" ... certain people would still be complaining today. And really, this is not the time to complain about Ohio State, as they almost knocked off a team that is the closest thing to a dynasty in college football today.

I remember the days, not too long ago, when Ohio State fans were complaining about 0.0 GPA's, Prop 48's, felony arrests, 2-10-1, etc. Yeah, JT ain't perfect, but bitching about his conservative offensive is just nit-picking....

 

[Piney]

Nothing against Coach Tressel and the staff (obligatory clarification), but they've changed their scheme and strategy and it isn't something they appear comfortable with. If you look back to the Maurice Clarett drama, the quarterback battle between Smith and Zwick, and the departure of a lot of very good offensive linemen you'll notice the coaching staff had to adjust to the situation. I think we have reached a slippery slope where we're shaping our offense around individuals rather than plugging in individuals in to our offense. I don't think this is a position the coaching staff wants to be in, but how do you break out of it?

The phrase you are looking for is a jack of all trades, but a master of none.

That is what our offense looks like. It is a mixture of different styles of offenses but not a good flow of what you would call an offensive system or a offensive gameplan.

 

[Buckeyefrankmp]

Do you think that it's possible that JT knew what USC was going to run as well? In fact, prior to the game, didn't JT say that USC runs a basic scheme with a few basic plays, that they let you know what they are going to do, they just do it anyway because they are so good at it? Go back and check some pre-game articles, if you doubt me. Because Ohio State's defense basically shut down USC's offense, I think it's fair to say that Tressel essentially knew what Pete Carroll was going to do on offense.

Since we are talking about Tressel being out coached by Carroll lets concentrate on OSU Offense vs USC Defense since these are where the head coaches make the calls.

In any event, it is clear that Carroll did not always know what Ohio State was going to run on offense. Witness the big plays in the first quarter, for which USC had no answer. In fact, on the fake bubble screen, USC overplayed the tendency (that is, they thought that they knew what was coming, but they didn't), and Ohio State got a huge play out of it.

That's great. He called a great first quarter. What happened after that? We got a safety on a gift from the USC long snapper and two field goals. He went back to the same running play. Pull the guard and send Herron up the middle. I understand the concept that if they can't stop the play keep running it. When they keep stopping these plays, it might be time for plan B.

And one more thing ... if you want to be taken seriously on BP, then stop with the unsupported, conclusory arguments, namely "Here's one fact (which is really just an allegation), so I must be right." Especially if you are going to use such arguments to support a position which really just reduces to "Tressel sux!!!1!!"

Am I not being taken seriously? Why didn't someone tell me this?

 

[Steve19]

It's hard to understand the negativity being expressed in this thread about Jim Tressel.

We know what we have here. Strong special teams. Smash mouth defense that dares you to make a mistake. Conservative offense. Intensive transfer of core values that emphasize academic excellence and life skills.

After the Navy game, some posters were very negative about the performance of the offensive and defensive line. When some of us suggested that Tressel might have been holding something back for the USC game, it's not surprising that some posters felt death was just an excuse for poor line play. Now, we see an interview with a USC lineman who indicated that they spent the entire game trying to adjust to what we were doing because they had not seen it before.

As has been pointed out in this thread, by following his core values, Jim Tressel could have kept 3 points off the board in the first half and possibly scored again.

I know that until we score 60 points a game on offense, every week, the ESPN's of the world and many Buckeye fans will be unhappy. Quite frankly, I could care less how many points we score so long as we beat the teams that we play. With an extremely young team, we played a team that I think will be in the national championship game and we came within a breath of beating them. Their quarterback probably will not play this week because of the beating he took at the hands of our defense. They know they were in a game.

I don't care if the press respects our team because I'm very certain that USC does. I think it's very likely that this team could go undefeated the rest of the year.

For all of you that are so negative about this coach, my advice is to be very careful about what you wish for. If you don't believe me, think about how long we mourned Woody Hayes and about the experiences at the school up north that he despised.

 

[osugrad21]

even if the struggles are 100% execution and 0% poor play calls, it is STILL the responsibility of the staff, because it's their job to teach the kids how to execute the plays;

Don't twist it...if course there are bad calls and good calls and usually a combination of both from both sides of the equation.

Imagine this one, I'd wager 90% of big plays come from a lack of execution and not as a result of gameplanning.

Do you really think TP was not taught to attack downhill on the speed option? Is it really the Coach Sic's fault when TP tries to improvise and screws up the whole play?

I am not at all saying there is zero blame for coaches...but I am saying that the simplification of the issue is misguided as usual.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

As has been pointed out in this thread, by following his core values, Jim Tressel could have kept 3 points off the board in the first half and possibly scored again.

That to me is the chief piece of irony here....

As much clamoring for taking chances and not sitting on the ball with a buck 40 to go in a half... you get that, and it bit Ohio State.

As much as we hear "Run this nifty spread, or this exciting play!" it was a boring ISO or QB sneak which would have kept Ohio State in position to try a FG which would have pushed the lead to 8... You wanted a pass play to get the 1st... you got that play... and it failed.

Go back to the Navy game, even.... Tressel ball pushes the score to a 3 possession game on 4th and 1 from the 15... But.. we want flash, and we want to go for the jugular in flashy ways... trying for Touchdowns where FGs will do... and we go for it... and we fail... and the next thing we know, we're in need of a 2 pt conversion return to secure the win...

I say it again... this man has won more than 75% of his games at Ohio State... Probably more than 80 (I haven't looked it up) He did it his way... why? Because it fucking works.

When he goes 5-7 consistently, maybe then I'll entertain calls for change a little more seriously.

 

[Buckeyefrankmp]

Every team has tendencies, Every team watches film to expose those tendencies, Every team in America charts strong/weak, wide/short, hash, down and distance, formation and play frequency, lead/trailing tendencies, etc...

By the end of the week, usually every coach in college football has a dang good idea what the other team will do in most situations.

Don't we have someone internally looking at our own tendencies and how we can break them.

 

[osugrad21]

Don't we have someone internally looking at our own tendencies and how we can break them.

Yes. Every staff breaks down their own performance weekly and keeps track of season tendencies.

However, tendencies are tweaked and twisted but rarely flat-out broken consistently.

You do what do and try to do it well and you constantly evaluate the personnel performance.