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- Thread starter Buckskin86
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LightningRod
Legend
Florida State's Jameis Winston hearing could face many legal hurdles
As Jameis Winston's attorney, David Cornwell, continues to negotiate with Florida State over when Winston will appear at a disciplinary student code of conduct hearing, SI.com legal analyst Michael McCann takes a look at the numerous legal issues at play and the concerns for Winston and his legal team.
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As Jameis Winston's attorney, David Cornwell, continues to negotiate with Florida State over when Winston will appear at a disciplinary student code of conduct hearing, SI.com legal analyst Michael McCann takes a look at the numerous legal issues at play and the concerns for Winston and his legal team.
cont'd
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A lot of hullabaloo in that article about "due process" and "kangaroo court"... and yes, it's true to some extent.
But since when has a work place been required to prove an employee has broken the law in order to discipline or fire them? Fundamentally, there is a very similar relationship at Universities.
If you sexually harassed somebody at a work place, it's probably going to be handled by HR -- without much in the way of "due process"; and certainly less than you'd get at an Ivory Tower. There may well be comparable policies about "creating a hostile environment" and other, relatively arbitrary, limitations on behavior.
It's a very simple process -- if you don't like their (arbitrary) rules, go somewhere else. It's even easier than dealing with an employer since you're the one paying them. Take your business to another institution.
But the article jumped the shark for me when it complained that Winston wouldn't be allowed to bring up her sexual history... and then the very next paragraph talks about how Winston could be subjected to "irrelevant" or "unfair" forms of evidence ?? Um... how does sexual history have anything to do with the topic? Seems like the author is implying you can't be a victim of rape unless you're a virgin?
The examples the author claims for such "irrelevant" and "unfair" forms of evidence are basically anything that impugns Winston's character (stealing, bb guns, tourettes, etc.) ... so... victim having previously had sex means a potential rape victim isn't reliable, but don't bring up actual illegal activities in the case of the alleged assailant ? Ummm...?
But since when has a work place been required to prove an employee has broken the law in order to discipline or fire them? Fundamentally, there is a very similar relationship at Universities.
If you sexually harassed somebody at a work place, it's probably going to be handled by HR -- without much in the way of "due process"; and certainly less than you'd get at an Ivory Tower. There may well be comparable policies about "creating a hostile environment" and other, relatively arbitrary, limitations on behavior.
It's a very simple process -- if you don't like their (arbitrary) rules, go somewhere else. It's even easier than dealing with an employer since you're the one paying them. Take your business to another institution.
But the article jumped the shark for me when it complained that Winston wouldn't be allowed to bring up her sexual history... and then the very next paragraph talks about how Winston could be subjected to "irrelevant" or "unfair" forms of evidence ?? Um... how does sexual history have anything to do with the topic? Seems like the author is implying you can't be a victim of rape unless you're a virgin?
The examples the author claims for such "irrelevant" and "unfair" forms of evidence are basically anything that impugns Winston's character (stealing, bb guns, tourettes, etc.) ... so... victim having previously had sex means a potential rape victim isn't reliable, but don't bring up actual illegal activities in the case of the alleged assailant ? Ummm...?
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ScriptOhio
Everybody is somebody else's weirdo.
Forida State gives way to 'Jameis State'
The embarrassment continues unabated at Florida State, a school that has put the need to win football games above all else, including an alleged rape, a Title IX violation and, pending an investigation, an NCAA rule that some schools still actually follow.
The amazingly still-eligible Jameis Winston is preparing for the big Notre Dame game Saturday as if all of that — as well as stealing crab legs from a Publix and soda from a Burger King, firing a BB gun at his apartment complex and making a spectacle of himself yelling a vulgar phrase while standing on a table in the student union — never happened.
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"Free Shoes University," meet "Jameis State."
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continued
Good article: http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...eis-winston-jimbo-fisher-autographs/17322575/
The embarrassment continues unabated at Florida State, a school that has put the need to win football games above all else, including an alleged rape, a Title IX violation and, pending an investigation, an NCAA rule that some schools still actually follow.
The amazingly still-eligible Jameis Winston is preparing for the big Notre Dame game Saturday as if all of that — as well as stealing crab legs from a Publix and soda from a Burger King, firing a BB gun at his apartment complex and making a spectacle of himself yelling a vulgar phrase while standing on a table in the student union — never happened.
.
.
"Free Shoes University," meet "Jameis State."
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.
continued
Good article: http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...eis-winston-jimbo-fisher-autographs/17322575/
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So, let me get this straight. You pay lots of money to go to work, and then HR will punish you, maybe make you do community service or kick you out... of work?
*sigh*
Now, I will admit that this author is out of his depth. But you're out of yours too. Your post jumps the shark about the same time you say the author of that article does. Neither one of you should be morally judging the rules of this system anymore than Florida State or any other University should be meting out "justice" or punishment in the case of a MAJOR felony having been potentially committed.
Yesterday, conveniently, in the New Republic.
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/...t-rules-trample-rights-accused-campus-rapists
My favorite part (though, the whole thing is very good)
So... because of Title IX....the Department of Education under the auspices of preventing discrimination tramples the due process rights of those who might (or not) have acted inappropriately.
Not Florida State Rules, not Harvard, not Penn State's (unfortunately), nor Stanford's. The Federal Government without regard for any conventionally accepted proof of misconduct.
Having said all that, to have Jameis Wintson be the poster child for this abuse is absurd, and probably the worst thing imagineable, but "trying" someone for rape in something other than a real courtroom, civil or criminal, is a joke.
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You get paid to work; you pay Universities. I never stated otherwise.
Even so, the consumer isn't "always right" as far as Unis are concerned. They have a reputation and standards to uphold (to say nothing of federal restrictions such as Title IX).
You are never guaranteed "due process" equivalent to a criminal court at either Universities or workplaces -- and though the financial relation is opposite, the relation between school:student is very comparable to employer:employee for these purposes. Each has their own arbitrary rules and, almost universally lower standards of evidence/process/etc., which you *voluntarily* subject yourself to in order to remain a part of their organization.
If you don't like how they run their ship, find a new job or a new University. Universities are required by Title IX to conduct investigations. It does not, however, tell them how to conduct their own disciplinary hearings.... as your own article highlights a wide array of standards and methodologies.
Comparing Due Process in a criminal court to internal disciplinary procedures at a workplace or University is a misnomer from the start. They are not the same thing; and there is no reason for a workplace to employ criminal court standards for internal discipline. Last I checked, marijuana is legal where I live ... but partaking in it will still get you fired from quite a few jobs. Don't like it? Find a different employer. Don't like subjecting yourself to "unfair" piss tests? Find a different employer. Same with local Universities and consumption of alcohol on campus... don't like it? Find a University with a more relaxed attitude towards alcohol.
If a workplace suspects an employee of scamming money out of the cash register, inside trading, or anything else... should they be required to prove it in a court of law before firing them? That's what you're suggesting. Large organizations have a responsibility for self-policing their environment, it's long been the case in our society. I don't see anything changing there.
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Florida State is a public university, and therefore, must follow different rules from a private university/private employer.
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It's a State school to be sure.
But other than sucking off the teat of federal student loans and public perception, are they actually compelled by law to do whatever they're told?
That point seems rather unclear to me -- all the articles I've seen suggest worst case scenario is losing federal funding. That fundamentally makes it a choice.
Even then, public work places have internal procedures.
Military has UCMJ - if the perp chooses, they can take it to a Kangaroo Court; but far more likely it'll be handled behind closed doors as an Non-Judicial Punishment.
I'm not aware what code exists or doesn't for Civil Servants, but I know for a fact they don't need a criminal court conviction to internally discipline an employee.
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cincibuck
You kids stay off my lawn!
So what are you saying here, Akak, that the victim in this case is Jameis?
This is the court of last resort for the victim. The police, the city, the state and especially the university have conspired to keep her case from having a fair and open hearing and if things are going against the male side - and by that I mean the perp, the cops, the city, the state and the school - it may well be because they all conspired to keep this woman, all women, in her/their place.
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CookyPuss
Screw Blue
Due process is required for all state administrative procedures, including employee discipline. The question is a matter of what degree of "due process" must be followed in that context, which you have correctly stated is not the same as for criminal court proceedings. The Supreme Court follows the standard from Mathews v. Eldridge to determine if the procedural standards of such procedures meet the due process requirements of the Constitution. Essentially it is a balancing test of the person's interest (usually a property interest or right) vs the need for the government's efficient resolution of the situation.
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