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Indians Tidbits (2006 season)..

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why should folks expect atlanta to be stupid because cinci vastly overpaid for 2 mediocre bull pen arms?

Wickman is either going to resign with cleveland for one year or retire at the end of the season. cleveland is going nowhere this year. they got something of value for him.

could they have tried waiting another week to try and up the price? possibly. but wicky has to approve the team, so the options were likely limited.

some people bshing this trade are likely the same folks that bitched at butch davis for releasing players without getting anything in return.

if nothing else, this allow cleveland to see if carmona is the closer of the future.
 
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tsteele316 said:
why should folks expect atlanta to be stupid because cinci vastly overpaid for 2 mediocre bull pen arms?

Wickman is either going to resign with cleveland for one year or retire at the end of the season. cleveland is going nowhere this year. they got something of value for him.

could they have tried waiting another week to try and up the price? possibly. but wicky has to approve the team, so the options were likely limited.

some people bshing this trade are likely the same folks that bitched at butch davis for releasing players without getting anything in return.

if nothing else, this allow cleveland to see if carmona is the closer of the future.
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I'm not upset about seeing Wickman go, it's best for both parties. But a Class A catcher who was rated 20th best prospect in the Braves organization? The odds of that guy playing a day in a major league uniform are slim. And yes, I did bash Davis for that. You have to get something serviceable in return. The more moves I see from Shapiro, the more I realize John Hart might still have been playing mentor in some of the early moves that turned out well. Because right now, all we are doing is closing the gap between the big league club and the minors. I'm sick of rebuilding.
 
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or maybe the people bashing this trade are the same people who bitched about trading away the heart of our team from last year for a prospect, and the same people who thought re-signing bob howry should have been one of our top off-season priorities

I for one am happy Wickman is gone, it does seem as if we could have gotten more in return for him...hopefully part of the deal is Atlanta picks up a majority of the remaining contract

I'm still hoping we find a way to pull off that Cliff Lee for Carl Crawford deal that was rumored earlier in this thread....Cleveland needs to find a legit lead-off hitter and move Grady to the 2 or 3 spot....I'd rather see Carmona in the rotation next year by the way

Maybe our rotation for next year could look something like this:

CC, Westbrook, Sowers, Carmona, Byrd or another 5th, and we'd have to find a closer

more likely is CC, Lee, Westbrook, Sowers, Byrd......it seems like the Indians will have a few more trades before the deadline..I wouldnt be surprised to see Westbrook or Lee traded, especially Lee, with the contract coming up soon
 
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The more moves I see from Shapiro, the more I realize John Hart might still have been playing mentor in some of the early moves that turned out well. Because right now, all we are doing is closing the gap between the big league club and the minors. I'm sick of rebuilding.
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you obviously havea different recollection of the John Hart era in Cleveland.

Cleveland was going to get nothing in return for Wickman that would help close the gap you speak of. In fact, I would posit that most of the disparity between Cleveland and the rest of the central does not lie in the actual talent out on the field.

in regards to Lee, he is arbitration eligible after this season. Not signing an extention before the season has a bad move by him given the poor year he's having overall. Cleveland will likely get him at a decent price. They are a reliable bullpen arm and one consistent bat from having all the necessary pieces.<!-- / message -->
 
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tsteele316 said:
you obviously havea different recollection of the John Hart era in Cleveland.

Cleveland was going to get nothing in return for Wickman that would help close the gap you speak of. In fact, I would posit that most of the disparity between Cleveland and the rest of the central does not lie in the actual talent out on the field.

in regards to Lee, he is arbitration eligible after this season. Not signing an extention before the season has a bad move by him given the poor year he's having overall. Cleveland will likely get him at a decent price. They are a reliable bullpen arm and one consistent bat from having all the necessary pieces.<!-- / message -->
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Perhaps we do have different recollection, not sure what yours is. As far as having all the necessary pieces (w/ a bullpen arm and a consistent bat), have you seen the way this team fields and runs the bases? Would that bullpen arm include Howry, and that bat belong to Crisp? The way the starting pitching seems to always give back any leads the offense gives them? I'm not down on our offense, but we play the game like a bunch of beer league softball players. Mash the shit out of the ball, and stumble around drunkenly in the other aspects of the game. We needed to add to the pieces we had last year, not dismantle and rebuild.
 
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Ok, now that I have heard more about it the less I am upset. The only reason I was originally upset was because we got a A-Level prospect. Why not AA or AAA? Trading Wickman I have no problems with, getting something for him was my only beef.

But listened to some clips from Shapiro and read up on the guy we got. He is the 5th rated prospect in the Appalachain League (The Single A League he is in). He was in the All-State game and has thrown out 38% of runners on him on the year. He can hit (9 homers and 38 RBIs) and can apparantly play some defense. The only reason he is not highly ranked on the Atlanta minor league system is because he is single A and he was expendable. Atlanta does have a 22 yr old catcher in the majors now and one of the better catching prospects in all of the minor leagues at AA.

So basically we got a player with a high ceiling. The only problem is he is 2-3 years away.
 
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redskinbucksfan said:
Perhaps we do have different recollection, not sure what yours is. As far as having all the necessary pieces (w/ a bullpen arm and a consistent bat), have you seen the way this team fields and runs the bases? Would that bullpen arm include Howry, and that bat belong to Crisp? The way the starting pitching seems to always give back any leads the offense gives them? I'm not down on our offense, but we play the game like a bunch of beer league softball players. Mash the shit out of the ball, and stumble around drunkenly in the other aspects of the game. We needed to add to the pieces we had last year, not dismantle and rebuild.
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the talent gap between cleveland and the rest of the central is not that large. I have seen this team field and run the bases. The continual flow of mistakes in those areas are not due to a lack of talent. as for the hart era, shelling out large amounts of $$$ for some bats, neglecting pitching continually, then trading away quality young prospects for mediocre at best returns seemed to be his M.O.
 
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redskinbucksfan said:
Well that, 400+ consecutive sell-outs, playoff games and World Series appearances.
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if the indians payroll was equivalent to what they spent in the mid 90's then you'd have a point. if the AL central was as dismal as it was then, perhaps the comparison would be relevant as well. those teams wouldn't be playoff contenders this year either.

as for the sellouts, if the browns move to another city and the cavs tank again, maybe the jake will sellout. the mid 90's indians benefitted from an inflated payroll in a weak division, not from the stellar brilliance of john hart.
 
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the indians teams from the 90's would easily compete today and id say hart deserves some credit for the drafting of guys like albert belle, baerga, lofton, ramirez, thome, giles, sexon, and moves to bring in guys like the alomars, murrays, etc....we may of had an inflated budget in a weak division but we also had the best team in 97 and prob 95 as well...just didnt get it done when we had too, plus the strike zone for atlanta in 95 was aburd...i saw a game on classic last year and was amazed at what i saw...being so young i didnt realize how lenient the umpires were until i saw it on classic last year...anyways, i think hart deserves morew credit than you give him, and i think shapiro had a sub-par off-season even with the restrictions he works with.....with a couple decent moves we can compete next year tho, its just we should be competing this year but instead we got worse in the off-season
 
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billmac91 said:
the indians teams from the 90's would easily compete today and id say hart deserves some credit for the drafting of guys like albert belle, baerga, lofton, ramirez, thome, giles, sexon, and moves to bring in guys like the alomars, murrays, etc....we may of had an inflated budget in a weak division but we also had the best team in 97 and prob 95 as well...just didnt get it done when we had too, plus the strike zone for atlanta in 95 was aburd...i saw a game on classic last year and was amazed at what i saw...being so young i didnt realize how lenient the umpires were until i saw it on classic last year...anyways, i think hart deserves morew credit than you give him, and i think shapiro had a sub-par off-season even with the restrictions he works with.....with a couple decent moves we can compete next year tho, its just we should be competing this year but instead we got worse in the off-season
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cleveland always got bounced from the playoffs repeatedly because they never had the necessary pitching. in a vain attempt to get some, hart tossed away most of cleveland's youth for piss poor vets. that's why it's taken cleveland so long to rebuild. it takes little skill to pony up and buy big name bats.

that being said, shapiro definately had a sub-par offseason. he caught lightening in a bottle when he signed guys like howry, elarton (for a 5th starter) and millwood, who all were coming off of injuries and looking to re-establish themselves. He tried to do the same with graves, mota, karsay, and johnson this year, signing them to short term deals to try and squeeze out a good season from them, and it blew up in his face.

I still state that cleveland's problems are a matter of attitude and leadership much more than talent.
 
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ABJ

7/21/06

Indians trade Wickman

Veteran closer sent to Braves. Carmona set to take over

By Sheldon Ocker

Beacon Journal sportswriter

<!-- begin body-content -->The sickly Indians will not make themselves well by negotiating a series of trades before the July 31 deadline.
If that wasn't apparent before, the deal that sent closer Bob Wickman to the Atlanta Braves for 21-year-old catcher Maximiliano Ramirez on Thursday made it abundantly clear.
In announcing the deal, General Manager Mark Shapiro said: ``This most likely will be the trade of the biggest magnitude of any we can make.
``But we do talk to a lot of teams, so there's the potential for something else, probably smaller. Of course, it's not out of the question that something bigger will arise.''
In other words, additional players who might be on the block -- Aaron Boone, Ben Broussard, Guillermo Mota -- are unlikely to bring back as much as did Wickman, who will close for the Braves.
Moreover, with Ramirez probably at least two years away from the big leagues, the transaction's impact on the franchise has more to do with the closer position than the catching position.
In that respect, Fausto Carmona will get the opportunity to replace Wickman. In his rookie season, Carmona has been converted from minor-league starter to major-league reliever, because it became obvious the bullpen needed a boost.
Carmona has worked his way up from middle relief to setup man, and now he will try to take the next step.
``We think that a chance to look at Fausto in the closer role is important to us,'' Shapiro said.
``This will allow us to see how he responds. According to how he does, it will impact us in the offseason.''
If Carmona makes the adjustment to ninth-inning save opportunities, Shapiro will not have to spend the winter shopping for a closer in the free-agent market or consummating another swap.
Until now, it had not been set in stone whether Carmona would be a career starter or reliever, but how he reacts to closing between now and season's end probably will be decisive.
``That's most likely,'' Shapiro said. ``Fausto is one of two guys we have in the organization in that category, in that he can be a top-of-the-rotation starter or a closer.''
Who will be Carmona's setup man for the rest of the schedule?
Manager Eric Wedge will use Rafael Betancourt and Fernando Cabrera, Shapiro said.
``He also will look at Edward Mujica,'' Shapiro said. ``Mota also has been pitching better lately.''
For the first time, Shapiro conceded that a trade was made because the Tribe is hopelessly out of the race for a playoff spot.
``The standings speak for themselves,'' he said.
Ramirez has spent all of 2006 at Class A Rome (Ga.), where he was batting .285 with 17 doubles, nine home runs, 50 runs, 54 walks and 37 RBI in 80 games. He was picked to play in the South Atlantic League All-Star Game.
He is considered more of an offensive threat than a defensive standout, though his catching skills have improved considerably.
``Max was recently converted to catcher and has thrown out 38 percent of guys trying to steal,'' Shapiro said. ``He has hit wherever he has played, but he's obviously young and far away.''
Ramirez came into his own as a prospect last year, when he was named co-Most Valuable Player of the short-season Appalachian League and batted .347 with eight homers and 47 RBI in 63 games.
He led the league in hits (83), was second in average and third in RBI, doubles and total bases.
The Braves signed the Venezuelan native as a nondrafted free agent in October of 2002.
Braves GM John Schuerholz was boarding a plane from St. Louis to Atlanta on Thursday morning, when he completed the deal with Shapiro by phone.
Finding an effective closer has been an ordeal for the Braves, with Chris Reitsma and Jorge Sosa having combined for 11 saves in 19 chances.
Wickman should solve that problem for the Braves, who trailed the Cincinnati Reds by five games in the wild-card race when the deal was made. Wickman converted 15-of-18 saves this year while compiling a 1-4 record and 4.18 ERA.
He struggled in June, converting three out of six save chances and posting a 9.00 ERA. But this month, he is 4-for-4 in save opportunities and has not allowed a run in four innings.
The Tribe's career leader in saves (139) made his 750th big-league appearance on Wednesday, earning the save in a 6-4 win over the Los Angeles Angels.
Wickman is still owed $2 million of his $5 million salary; the Braves will pick up the cost. As a 10-and-5 player, (someone who has been in the majors 10 years and with the same team for five), Wickman had to give his consent to the deal.
Belliard update
Ronnie Belliard's status after straining his left hamstring on Wednesday remains uncertain.
``Ronnie showed minor improvement today,'' Shapiro said Thursday. ``We will have to evaluate him again tomorrow. It's safe to say he won't play tomorrow night.''
Shapiro would not speculate whether Belliard would have to go on the disabled list.
Roster move coming
The Indians will have to call up a reliever from Triple-A Buffalo today to take Wickman's place on the roster.
The most obvious choice would appear to be Jason Davis. Because Davis will be out of options next season, the Tribe must decide if he is a fit in the bullpen or risk losing him on waivers next spring.
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ABJ

7/21/06

Wickman era closed; future includes Carmona

By Terry Pluto

<!-- begin body-content -->This is the kind of trade most Indians fans will hate, but it just tells everyone how far the Tribe has dropped this season.
All-time saves leader Bob Wickman is shipped to the Atlanta Braves for a kid catching in Class A.
General Manager Mark Shapiro said it simply: ``The standings speak for themselves.''
At 42-52, the Indians have the third-worst record in the American League.
On the surface, it seems the Indians should have received more for Wickman. He's having another solid year, converting 15-of-18 save opportunities for an otherwise unreliable bullpen. As in most trades, money screamed through a megaphone: Wickman is being paid $5 million, and the Braves will pick up the remaining $2 million.
He'll also be a free agent at the end of the season.
``It's a two-month rental for them,'' Shapiro said.
If you're a Braves fan, you're not concerned about that. Just get your suddenly sizzling team a cool presence in the ninth inning, when a variety of suspect Braves relievers have been torching game after game.
Wickman is exactly what the Braves need as they head into the final 10 weeks of the season only five games out of the wild-card playoff spot.
For the Indians, it made little sense to keep Wickman. He's 37 years old, has a history of arm trouble and will be a free agent in October.
It's time to see if Fausto Carmona can close.
As a reliever, Carmona is 0-1 with a 1.03 ERA in 26 innings. He has not allowed a homer out of the bullpen, whiffing 24 and walking seven.
He's a hulking right-handed presence on the mound, 6-foot-4, 220 pounds, with a fierce, 96-mph fastball and some superb breaking pitches. You can see it: Some guys just don't want to bat against the rookie.
Just as the round, agony-faced Wickman never quite looked the part of the closer, Carmona seems like just the guy for the job based on physical presence and raw stuff.
But Wickman demonstrated that so much of surviving the ninth inning is being mentally capable of handling the pressure of the entire game. Yes, everyone sweated and perhaps swore as Wickman pitched the final inning. In the end, he truly supplied relief -- even if he also created a lot of drama and upset stomachs in the process.
His 90 percent save-conversion rate with the Tribe is one of the best in baseball -- far above the 80 percent that is considered a goal for closers.
Wickman is a 10-and-5 man, meaning he has been in the big leagues for 10 years, five with the same team. That allowed him to veto any deal, and it might have limited the Indians' options.
Perhaps that's why they were able to pick up only Maximiliano Ramirez in return.
Ramirez is 21, a catcher for Rome (Ga.) in the Class A South Atlantic League. He'll be assigned to the Tribe's Lake County team in the same league.
Pure numbers are impressive: .285 with 17 doubles, nine homers and 37 RBI in 80 games with a .408 on-base percentage as the team's cleanup hitter.
A year ago, he was the co-Most Valuable Player of the rookie Appalachian League, hitting .347 with eight homers and 47 RBI in 63 games with a .424 on-base percentage. He also threw out 38 percent of stealing base runners.
But as serious Tribe fans know, it is only 20 miles from Classic Park to Jacobs Field, but it takes Lake County players years to arrive -- if at all.
Shapiro said he could have received a player from Class AAA, but the alternatives were not as attractive as Ramirez. He believes Ramirez has a chance to become a special player.
Remember, Grady Sizemore was a so-so 19-year-old outfielder in Class A (batting .258 with zero homers in 70 games) when the Tribe acquired him as part of the Bartolo Colon deal with the Montreal Expos.
The Indians have also traded for Class A players whose names long have been forgotten.
So it's that time of year when the Indians sell off their veterans for a bet on the future. Given what has happened this season, they created a mess where they have no other choice.
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As a Braves fan I was really stoked when I saw this yesterday. I've watched so many games this season where they've blown it in the 9th. If they had a closer to start the season, they'd be right there with the Mets (6 blown saves for John Smoltz alone). This deal makes sense for both teams, although I think the Tribe could have gotten more for Wick. Atlanta will dump Wickman after this season, and Cleveland will roll the dice that this kid matures into Martinez's replacement (once he hits free agency down the road, and gets expensive). Plus, with a 22 year old all star catcher (who's batting over 340 this season).......and a top prospect catcher waiting in the fog.........this kid would have never seen the field in Atlanta.

Wickman is no Papelbon, but he's a hell of a lot better than anything we've had in Atlanta over the last year or so. I think this piece gives the Braves what they need to get the wild card........and I think they may pick up one more in their bullpen.

At what point does Cleveland decide to spend some more money to retain some of their better players long term? It's already proven, if they win championships.......the Jake will sell out.....if not, they will not bring in much revenue.
 
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