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Indians Tidbits (2006 season)..

as far as getting brandon phillips so more time up in the leagues, did anybody see the plays Ronnie Belliard mas making at third base in the Dominican World Series? He looked like a gold glover over there, and his arm was phennominal, especially from his knees, gunning people out. If Boone isnt producing I wouldnt mind seeing Phillips get one last chance as an everyday player at second base and allow Ronnie to man third base to see if Brandon can get it done.
 
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as far as getting brandon phillips so more time up in the leagues, did anybody see the plays Ronnie Belliard mas making at third base in the Dominican World Series? He looked like a gold glover over there, and his arm was phennominal, especially from his knees, gunning people out. If Boone isnt producing I wouldnt mind seeing Phillips get one last chance as an everyday player at second base and allow Ronnie to man third base to see if Brandon can get it done.

if boone is tanking at 3rd, there is probably a greater chance of seeing marte than phillips.
 
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Beacon

2/7/06

Ocker on the Indians

Focus lacking in recent moves

Future might be bright, but what about now?

By Sheldon Ocker

<!-- begin body-content -->By the time the Indians open training camp in 2008, the scintillating play of third baseman Andy Marte and backup catcher Kelly Shoppach will have the media buzzing.
General Manager Mark Shapiro not only will have been cited as major-league executive of the year the previous winter, he will have been inducted into the baseball wing of the MENSA Hall of Fame.
Excitement will be everywhere. Well, almost everywhere. Tribe ticket sellers and marketing operatives will have their fingers crossed that the precipitous drop-off in season-ticket sales will begin to level off.
The public relations staff will be anxious to see whether the relentless criticism of owners Larry and Paul Dolan finally will have run its course, and hope that Northeast Ohio's radio talk show hosts will have found a new whipping boy in another sport.
How do I know this will happen? I don't, but it could. The fallout from trading Coco Crisp and others for Marte, Shoppach, reliever Guillermo Mota and outfielder Jason Michaels very well could trigger a mass revolt by the customers.
The baseball logic behind the trades with the Boston Red Sox and Philadelphia Phillies made (almost) perfect sense. Obtain one of the top-10 prospects in all of baseball plus a promising catcher for an admittedly productive outfielder in Crisp, while unloading three players -- David Riske, Arthur Rhodes, Josh Bard -- who had fallen out of favor.
Shapiro looked at it this way: Build for the future while maintaining a competitive team that can battle the Chicago White Sox for the Central Division title, or at least be good enough to contend for a wild-card spot.
The GM and his lieutenants had every reason to believe in the deal, even if they recognized that the fans would become restive. After all, a general manager can't let the fans dictate how he goes about his business.
I couldn't agree more. Ninety-nine percent of the time. However, these deals happen to fall into that teeny-weeny one percent. They are the exception that proves the rule.
It's not that Indians partisans think Shapiro is crazy for believing Marte has a chance to be a premier third baseman. Most of the folks in Tribe Nation trust Shapiro's judgment about the quality of the players he acquires.
But something else is at work here. Northeast Ohio baseball fans have deep-seated misgivings about the Dolan ownership. They doubt the Dolans will spend what it takes to maintain a competitive franchise.
The customers heard Larry Dolan promise to be forthcoming with an appropriately large budget when the team was ready to make a run for the playoffs. Last year, the Tribe won 93 games, normally more than enough to make the postseason. Unfortunately for Shapiro, Wedge and the Dolans, it didn't happen.
Even though a final-week collapse cost the club a berth in the playoffs, most fans were happy with the season and looked forward to 2006. But they were wary. The winter deal-making period would determine whether the Dolans were as good as their word.
The owners, with Shapiro as their instrument, tried. In making bids for free agents Brian Giles, Trevor Hoffman and Nomar Garciaparra, Indians' offers were equal to or exceeded those of the teams with which the players ultimately signed.
The fans' response: Why didn't the Dolans offer even more? Or Shapiro offered more, but he knew the players wouldn't accept, a cynical ploy designed only to silence fan complaints. This theory shows how little credibility the Dolans have with the public.
Though hardly a scientific sampling of opinion, my e-mails have run 98 percent against the recent deals. Other writers I've talked to say the same. The talk shows are filled with venom for the Dolans and the trades.
These transactions have served mostly to add fuel to the fire for a fan base that already was skeptical of the commitment of ownership. And never mind that the transactions were not consummated to save money, even though the team has come out about $8 million ahead.
When all is said and done, Shapiro probably will use the entire $56 million he was allotted ($14 million more than he had in 2005) for payroll, if he can find quality players to take the money.
Besides being portrayed as cheap, the Dolans are being accused of delaying the fans' gratification endlessly. Last year was obviously the Tribe's breakout season in terms of a return to competitiveness. In other words, the 2006 club should be even better.
But because the inevitable loss of Kevin Millwood was not entirely mitigated by the signing of Paul Byrd, and Shapiro was outbid for other players, fan anxiety was already rising.
Add to that the Crisp-for-Michaels exchange. Not even Shapiro argues that the Phillies' No. 4 outfielder is an equal match for Crisp. The fans are right to believe the departure of Crisp will force the Indians to take a step backward in a season they were expected to be one of the top four teams in the American League.
Fans understand the Millwood situation. They realize the potential folly of offering even an elite pitcher a five-year contract, considering the fragility of his right elbow.
But the Crisp giveaway was totally voluntary. Shapiro had a choice. He didn't have to make the trade, then seek to fill a gaping hole by acquiring Michaels, a player who doesn't hit for power, who can't run, who is suspect in the outfield and who never has been a regular.
Would I have made the deal? As much as I trust Shapiro's judgment about Marte and Shoppach, I would not. This is one time the Indians needed to focus on winning now, not two or three years down the road.
Right or wrong, the Tribe's fan base feels betrayed. And betrayal can lead to the kind of hostility that keeps customers away from Jacobs Field by the thousands.
If that happens, the public's perception of the Dolans will turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy. For without an increase in gate receipts, where will the money come from to finance next winter's moves?
 
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Just looking at this picture is painful.....:smash:

291412.jpg
 
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Ocker is a chump stain. First, cleveland surpassed season ticket sales from last year in December, of course there was going to be a drop off.

Secondly, in reading most baseball analysts opinions on the crisp deal, many, if not all, see it as a very good deal for cleveland.

i'm not quite sure who this chump was talking to, but my guess is it was roger brown.
 
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Just like most of the trade's critics, I definitely think he's a little too 'doom and gloom'. I don't think replacing Coco with Michaels prevents them at all from winning 93 games again. I wouldn't say they've improved for this season, but it's not like the bottom fell out. I will say this, though: There is a hostile element in the Cleveland fanbase about this offseason, and I've seen it first hand. Having not been a Cleveland fan all my life, I can't identify, but there definitely seems to be a certain 'why do we bother?' sentiment floating around. I first saw it at the park during the season-ending series versus Chicago, and I'm seeing it again now after the Coco trade. Good news for Shapiro et al is that more winning will make all that disappear.

No pressure, Tribe.
 
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of course theres venom in cleveland and it's a catch 22 scenario...........im in the group that loves the indians and hates the dolans, plus a part of me feels shitty going to the games and lining the dolans pockets...hes proven he won't spend during this off-season after a 93 win season, and the year before that, we showed progress and again he didnt spend. If we sell out the Jake we just make the Dolan's richer and they won't reinvest in the team......I just wish for the days of the Jacobs family
 
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of course theres venom in cleveland and it's a catch 22 scenario...........im in the group that loves the indians and hates the dolans, plus a part of me feels shitty going to the games and lining the dolans pockets...hes proven he won't spend during this off-season after a 93 win season, and the year before that, we showed progress and again he didnt spend. If we sell out the Jake we just make the Dolan's richer and they won't reinvest in the team......I just wish for the days of the Jacobs family

The problem is that the Dolans aren't making a lot of money off of the Indians. Last I saw many MLB team operate at a loss. If the Indians are breaking even it isn't by much. It sounds like you want an owner who will throw money into the team and not care how much they lose. The Dolans have stated that they don't want to lose money on the team, and I can't fault them for that. If Cleveland fans want them to spend more money we will have to put more asses in the seats. The attendance last season was pathetic.
 
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Just like most of the trade's critics, I definitely think he's a little too 'doom and gloom'. I don't think replacing Coco with Michaels prevents them at all from winning 93 games again. I wouldn't say they've improved for this season, but it's not like the bottom fell out. I will say this, though: There is a hostile element in the Cleveland fanbase about this offseason, and I've seen it first hand. Having not been a Cleveland fan all my life, I can't identify, but there definitely seems to be a certain 'why do we bother?' sentiment floating around. I first saw it at the park during the season-ending series versus Chicago, and I'm seeing it again now after the Coco trade. Good news for Shapiro et al is that more winning will make all that disappear.

No pressure, Tribe.

Here's the part where some people vary in opinion. it seems obvious that shapiro and company feel that the young guys in the system will improve, including CC, Lee, V-Mart, Peralta et. all. As such, losing the guys they did and replacing them with the guys they signed doesn't equal a net loss of overall talent. some fans either don't share that sentiment, or don't bother to think about it that deeply.
 
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i CANNOT say this with certainty, but i'm pretty sure I read the Doalns have been making money off the Indians even with crappy attendance.....if he proved he was willing to invest some money and field a winning team fans would definately come back......he buys the indians, dismantles a great product, shapiro does a great job putting a winning product out there with a lousy budget, this off-season was a great opportunity to improve, but instead we arguably get worse...its frustrating
 
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let me add as i believe VRBryant has stated before, this was the off-season to improve not rebuild for the future.....acquiring jason michaels is not improving over coco.....the thought of trading westbrook for austin kearns is not improving.....ive got a really pssimistic view of this upcoming season, i don't see us within 10-15 games of the central winner
 
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if he proved he was willing to invest some money and field a winning team fans would definately come back......

Building a winning team is all the fans should care about. Dolan did that last year, and I don't see the team being any weaker in 2006. If the team wins, show up, if they don't, stay away. The sense I get from some fans is that they'd be happy with an 80 win season if the payroll was 80 million. What kind of backwards-ass, not seeing the forest for the trees sense is that? Some people need to stop worrying about a high payroll team and start worrying about a winning team. In my mind, this is a team that will contend for a playoff spot again.
 
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i CANNOT say this with certainty, but i'm pretty sure I read the Doalns have been making money off the Indians even with crappy attendance.....if he proved he was willing to invest some money and field a winning team fans would definately come back......he buys the indians, dismantles a great product, shapiro does a great job putting a winning product out there with a lousy budget, this off-season was a great opportunity to improve, but instead we arguably get worse...its frustrating

I CAN say for certain that Dolan lost MILLIONS his first few years. Remember he threw money at Chuck Finely thinking he can take us over the top. Then we find out we were already over the hill heading down to the creek and the fans didn't want a part of it. Well Dolan took a bath those first few years as our payroll was still high and the fans jumped off the bandwagon the second they saw the Indians wouldn't make the playoffs and attendance went down faster than the payroll.

What he lost? I have heard as much as $15 million his first year as owner, but seems like $10 million was the area he lost. Now is he still losing money? Nope, I would bet Dolan makes some money but it probable is no where close to repaying how much he has lost with the team.

This offseason we apparently had money to spend. But did you want to throw money at a Chuck Finely type again and to flush that money down the toilet? That is what we had a chance to do. Shapiro isn't stupid, he has money to play with but he doesn't want to shoot his wad on an older player that has an injury history at a very risky position (ie Millwood).

Shapiro will have that money to spend in June & July. This is where we find out that Michaels can make it or not, we find a gem in the bullpen, or a young kid comes out of nowhere. Then once we have an idea where we are heading Shaprio can make a move, trade for an outfielder that a lower payroll can't afford anymore. Maybe rent a pitcher or a closer. That is when better talent will be available. Much better talent that was available this past year in free agency.
 
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i completely agree with free agency sucking this off-season , but keeping coco would have been a smart move over giving a couple mil to ben brouassard......and the the idea of just filling the seats because the team is winning is rewarding dolan for being cheap....i believe the fans feel they have been duped, especially after showing signs in 2002-03 and not seeing anything but more trades for prospects...again, shapiro has done a marvelous job of fielding a contender, this team could of competed for a wrold series with 10 million more in the budget last year.....next years team on paper does not look nearly as good as last years team.....again, ill be the first one to eat my words but i believe we play just above .500 ball and miss the central title by a wide margin
 
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