Illinois Fighting Illini (you'll see)

[zincfinger]

FWIW, I considered the loss to Illinois a bit of a beatdown after we absolutely could not stop them on that last freakin drive. Score was close, but if you cannot stop them when you know what's coming...man that was painful to watch.

And if OSU had somehow managed to pull out a win at the end against Illinois, would you have considered that a beatdown of the Illini? Sometimes a deceptively close score masks actual physical domination, but that wasn't the case in either Illinois/PSU or Illinois/Wisconsin, where the Illini were on the short end of time-of-possession, first downs, and total yardage (by about 100 yards in each game). Good wins for the Illini, but more accurately described as narrow escapes than as beatdowns.

 

[Sportsbuck28]

I wonder how he'd describe our game with scUM.

 

[OrangeRoughy]

They must bake up some serious rock crack in Champaign. Illinois hasn't had a first-round pick since 1996. Only one year since then (2003) did they have more than two players picked in a year. Here's their draftees since from 1997-2007:

YEAR . RND . OVR .. PLAYER .......... POS
2007 .. 7 .. 237 .. Alan Ball ........ CB
2005 .. 2 ... 60 .. Kelvin Hayden .... DB
2005 .. 4 .. 122 .. Duke Preston ...... C
2004 .. 5 .. 159 .. Sean Bubin ........ T
2004 .. 7 .. 233 .. Christian Morton . CB
2003 .. 2 ... 36 .. Eugene Wilson .... FS
2003 .. 4 .. 124 .. Brandon Lloyd .... WR
2003 .. 5 .. 160 .. David Diehl ....... G
2003 .. 5 .. 173 .. Tony Pashos ....... T
2003 .. 7 .. 226 .. Walter Young ..... WR
2002 .. 5 .. 158 .. Kurt Kittner ..... QB
2001 .. 5 .. 144 .. Marques Sullivan .. T
2001 .. 6 .. 174 .. Jameel Cook ...... RB
2000 .. 6 .. 169 .. Neil Rackers ...... K
2000 .. 7 .. 245 .. Danny Clark ...... LB
1999 .. 6 .. 197 .. J.P. Machado ...... G
1998 .. 2 ... 37 .. Robert Holcombe .. RB
1997 .. 6 .. 181 .. Dennis Stallings . LB

While the post you are referring to is certainly kool-aid laced, the stats you list are misleading as well. The players drafted during those 10 season were all Lou Tepper and Ron Turner recruits - arguably two of the worst recruiters in the history of our great conference. Not only were they bad at recruiting, they didn't try very hard. They believed in their "systems" (Tepper's 3-4 D, Turner's pro-set O), and felt they could take any decent high schooler and "coach-em-up". Wrong. To emphasize this level of wrong, I present to you this quote from Ron Turner (before the 1998 Illinois/OSU game):

"Coach Turner, how do you feel about facing Andy Katzenmoyer?"
"Well, he's larger than every one of our defensive linemen, and he's faster than every one of our wide receivers."

Unfortunately, every word of that was true. And yet that putz STILL didn't understand that he needed to recruit size and speed.

Anyway, all of that is changing under Zook. The first round draft pick streak will end in 59 days when Mendenhall goes in the top 20. We might have a couple other later round draft picks in J Leman and Kevin Mitchell. (1st team All American OG Martin O'Donnell has decided not to pursue a professional football career, mainly so he can walk when he's 40)

Next year I think we'll see CB Vontae Davis leave early and go in the first or second round. And Zook recruits like WR Arrelious Benn, WR Jeff Cumberland, OG Jon Asamoah, LT Xavier Fulton, DE Will Davis, LB Martez Wilson, and DT Josh Brent all possess the measurables needed to get picked in future Aprils.

 

[OrangeRoughy]

Most of what you say is level-headed. Referring to the tight wins over Wisconsin and PSU last year as "beatdowns" are the exceptions.

Touche'. The Wisconsin win was beatdown-ish, (they scored with 1 minute left to make it interesting), but the Penn State win was definitely a squeaker. Thankfully, Penn State had Anthony Morelli come to our rescue with 4 (yes, four) 4th quarter turnovers (three picks and a fumble).

But I will say this. After losing to PSU at home 63-10 two years earlier, any victory at home over a ranked conference opponent feels like a beatdown. :)

 

[matcar]

And if OSU had somehow managed to pull out a win at the end against Illinois, would you have considered that a beatdown of the Illini? Sometimes a deceptively close score masks actual physical domination, but that wasn't the case in either Illinois/PSU or Illinois/Wisconsin, where the Illini were on the short end of time-of-possession, first downs, and total yardage (by about 100 yards in each game). Good wins for the Illini, but more accurately described as narrow escapes than as beatdowns.

Yes, as I said in my original post, all tOSU victories are considered beatdowns when I talk to the opposition. It's part of my Buckeye defense mechanism. Some people call it homerism.

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

Anyway, all of that is changing under Zook. The first round draft pick streak will end in 59 days when Mendenhall goes in the top 20. We might have a couple other later round draft picks in J Leman and Kevin Mitchell. (1st team All American OG Martin O'Donnell has decided not to pursue a professional football career, mainly so he can walk when he's 40)

Aren't most, if not all, of those you mentioned recruits of Ron Turner (Zook took over for the 2005 season)?

 

[zincfinger]

I wonder how he'd describe our game with scUM.

Again, not the same thing. Illinois was on the short end of most statistical categories in the games cited. That's not to say that games are won or lost in the statistics column, but it does say something about how the games went (or if you watched those games, you would probably not regard them as beatdowns). PSU and Wisconsin gained 427 and 519 yards respectively, against Illinois. Michigan gained 91 total yards against OSU. OSU had the game in control throughout, and showed mercy at the end. Illinois hung on in games that were very much in doubt to the end. It's not really worthwhile to spend this much time debating the definition of beatdown and such, but Illinois's wins against PSU and Wisconsin were nothing like OSU's win against UM, despite roughly similar margins of victory.

 

[zincfinger]

But I will say this. After losing to PSU at home 63-10 two years earlier, any victory at home over a ranked conference opponent feels like a beatdown. :)

That, I can appreciate.

 

[OrangeRoughy]

Aren't most, if not all, of those you mentioned recruits of Ron Turner (Zook took over for the 2005 season)?

Leman and Mitchell were Turner recruits. And they're right in line with most Turner recruiting classes - a couple late-round picks here and there.

Mendenhall was a Zook recruit (although he committed that fall under soon-to-be-fired Turner, Zook held on to him, kept the wolves at bay, and got the ink on the paper). Mendenhall's brother was already at Illinois, so we were fairly certain he'd be an Illini. Although when he blew up to 5-star status, we certainly got worried. He was priority A, B, and C for Zook when he took over.

Of the other list I mentioned, all were Zook recruits except for Xavier Fulton, who is a converted DT.

 

[Sportsbuck28]

Again, not the same thing. Illinois was on the short end of most statistical categories in the games cited. That's not to say that games are won or lost in the statistics column, but it does say something about how the games went (or if you watched those games, you would probably not regard them as beatdowns). PSU and Wisconsin gained 427 and 519 yards respectively, against Illinois. Michigan gained 91 total yards against OSU. OSU had the game in control throughout, and showed mercy at the end. Illinois hung on in games that were very much in doubt to the end. It's not really worthwhile to spend this much time debating the definition of beatdown and such, but Illinois's wins against PSU and Wisconsin were nothing like OSU's win against UM, despite roughly similar margins of victory.

Okay, well I was talking about his comment of "We knew what was coming but still couldn't stop it" as rationale for our Illinois loss being a beatdown.

 

[Sportsbuck28]

Leman and Mitchell were Turner recruits. And they're right in line with most Turner recruiting classes - a couple late-round picks here and there.

Mendenhall was a Zook recruit (although he committed that fall under soon-to-be-fired Turner, Zook held on to him, kept the wolves at bay, and got the ink on the paper). Mendenhall's brother was already at Illinois, so we were fairly certain he'd be an Illini. Although when he blew up to 5-star status, we certainly got worried. He was priority A, B, and C for Zook when he took over.

Of the other list I mentioned, all were Zook recruits except for Xavier Fulton, who is a converted DT.

If he committed under Turner, then he is a Turner recruit.

 

[billmac91]

If he committed under Turner, then he is a Turner recruit.

it's semantics really.....the underlying point of what he's saying is very true. Zook can recruit. Illinois will maintain far more success under Zook than they did with Turner and Tepper.

 

[matcar]

Okay, well I was talking about his comment of "We knew what was coming but still couldn't stop it" as rationale for our Illinois loss being a beatdown.

I'm the one with that quote, and yeah, I'd consider the Meat game a total beatdown. They were manhandled....as our bitch should be.

 

[illinidarrin]

lets not start this whole thing about Turner VS Zook when it comes to recruiting. Zook has been here a couple of years and he is proving to be much better than Turner. Turner had some quality players, but he could not sustain his recruiting after the 2001 season . he just accepted anyone that wanted to come here. The whole roster now will be Zooks roster and we will see how things turn out.

 

[OrangeRoughy]

Zook has been here a couple of years and he is proving to be much better than Turner. Turner had some quality players, but he could not sustain his recruiting after the 2001 season . he just accepted anyone that wanted to come here. The whole roster now will be Zooks roster and we will see how things turn out.

I'm witcha D. Turner didn't really ever "recruit". The difference between Zook's staff and Turner's staff is more than just "much better" - it's Jessica Alba versus Kathy Bates. Turner was one of the worst recruiters in the Big Ten in the last 20 years, Zook is proving he can be one of the best. It can all be summed up in that article from the Tribune a few years ago after Zook took over. Some Public High league football coach saying, and I'm paraphrasing, "Ron Turner was coach at Illinois for 8 years, and he's never been in this office. Ron Zook was hired in December and he's already been in this office twice." Zook has done what we've been waiting for an Illinois coach to do for 25 years - cultivate relationships with Chicago high schools, and hire assistants with recruiting connections in other areas of the country. Not only did Turner struggle with that, he avoided it. He felt his NFL pedigree was enough, and thought that the coaches should come to him.

But we're not clear of the "Turner Two-stars" just yet. Ryan McDonald, Xavier Fulton, Derek Walker, David Lindquist, and others will be on the field a lot next fall. Nothing against them - they've all proven to be pretty good football players, and have been able to hold off the younger, more talented guys - but it won't be until Fall 2009 that Ron Zook has a full compliment of the bigger-stronger-faster players he's recruited. And we'll be replacing those four 2-star players with 4-star Mark Jackson, 4-star Graham Pocic, 4-star Corey Liuget, and 4-star Reggie Ellis. Derek Walker chose Illinois over Ball State and Ohio U. His probable replacement in '09, Corey Liuget, chose Illinois over LSU, Miami, and Florida State. Ryan McDonald chose Illinois over Toledo and the Directional Michigans (Central, Western, and Eastern). His possible 2009 replacement, Mark Jackson, chose Illinois over West Virginia and Michigan State.

So I'm looking at Fall 2009 as when this thing really takes off. The Zook classes will be upperclassmen with experience, and instead of walk-on Jacob Willis and 2-star Kyle Hudson, Juice will be throwing to 5-star Rejus Benn, 5-star Jarred Fayson, 4-star Jeff Cumberland, and 4-star Cordale Scott.

Night. and. day.