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- Thread starter vrbryant
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Taosman
Your Cousin In New Mexxico
I worked 20 years at a printing company. Why? They kept me so busy, over worked me, that I had little time to job search. And kept telling me how valuable I was. But, I saw the writing on the wall, they were going down hill. I bailed. 5 years later my friends came to work and found the gates locked! No warning, of coarse.
Of coarse, if you really love your job. Why not stay a while. Just don't get lulled into thinking your company really cares, and will take care of you.
Rarely happens anymore.
Depressing?
Reality.
Of coarse, if you really love your job. Why not stay a while. Just don't get lulled into thinking your company really cares, and will take care of you.
Rarely happens anymore.
Depressing?
Reality.
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Wow, welcome to the world of having incompetent assholes as bosses. They sound like little kids: "Well, you didn't want to play with me so now I don't want to play with you". Fuck 'em.
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NorthShoreBuck
True Madness Requires Significant Intelligence
I find these types of discussions fascinating.
It is obvious from this thread and others posted before that many here work at jobs and they hate it. It sounds like only a few think they have a career and it is something they enjoy. Not to sound too old but usually young people with lower level skills start like VR. Employers look for someone that adds some value and is reliable. The consulting firm while disliked is trying to discover who wants to invest some time in the firm to determine who the firm should invest in. Maybe there is someone working there that has aspirations to be a lawyer and the firm has an incentive to keep that person. They may be paid better and occasional late days and absences would be excused. While I would not condone telling lies sometimes what is left unsaid is the best path.
I think someone else mentioned it but the problem with working is usually the people you work with. Do the majority hate their job? If so maybe it is time to look for a new position. You are paid in direct relation to the value you create and how difficult it is to replace you. Always be careful in accepting a counter offer. Managers have budgets and they have to placate entire departments which is difficult when everyone feels they did a great job and deserve a raise.
I like to think I am self employed and that the value I bring exceeds what I am paid. The best career advice I ever got was from a sales manager. He had me write a business plan based on my salary, benefits and expenses and compare that to the profits of the goods I sold and or serviced. He then asked me, would you hire you? I know I would be classified by almost everyone here as a workaholic. I mentioned we get 6 sick days a year and I took one this year. That is the second one I have taken in the 8 years I have worked here. Some people take all theirs and more and believe me we know who they are and why they do it.
I also agree with TAOS, always be looking, networking and have an updated copy of your resume ready. Your best job, or career, may just well be your next one.
Edit-The one job at one place for a long time can say two things. One is that you never learned new things. The other is that you were not promotable so you stuck with the best you could get. On the opposite side I job hopped mid career, always getting better jobs and money but employers always questioned me on it.
VR, that is going to have to be one hell of novel.
It is obvious from this thread and others posted before that many here work at jobs and they hate it. It sounds like only a few think they have a career and it is something they enjoy. Not to sound too old but usually young people with lower level skills start like VR. Employers look for someone that adds some value and is reliable. The consulting firm while disliked is trying to discover who wants to invest some time in the firm to determine who the firm should invest in. Maybe there is someone working there that has aspirations to be a lawyer and the firm has an incentive to keep that person. They may be paid better and occasional late days and absences would be excused. While I would not condone telling lies sometimes what is left unsaid is the best path.
I think someone else mentioned it but the problem with working is usually the people you work with. Do the majority hate their job? If so maybe it is time to look for a new position. You are paid in direct relation to the value you create and how difficult it is to replace you. Always be careful in accepting a counter offer. Managers have budgets and they have to placate entire departments which is difficult when everyone feels they did a great job and deserve a raise.
I like to think I am self employed and that the value I bring exceeds what I am paid. The best career advice I ever got was from a sales manager. He had me write a business plan based on my salary, benefits and expenses and compare that to the profits of the goods I sold and or serviced. He then asked me, would you hire you? I know I would be classified by almost everyone here as a workaholic. I mentioned we get 6 sick days a year and I took one this year. That is the second one I have taken in the 8 years I have worked here. Some people take all theirs and more and believe me we know who they are and why they do it.
I also agree with TAOS, always be looking, networking and have an updated copy of your resume ready. Your best job, or career, may just well be your next one.
Edit-The one job at one place for a long time can say two things. One is that you never learned new things. The other is that you were not promotable so you stuck with the best you could get. On the opposite side I job hopped mid career, always getting better jobs and money but employers always questioned me on it.
VR, that is going to have to be one hell of novel.
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Vince, its not worth monkeying around with lawsuits against a law firm but I cannot imagine that you do not have a case for constructive dismissal and damages. I can only speak from a dim memory as a manager in the US twenty years ago and from South African law today, but here goes.
First, you cannot treat someone differently than you treat others. Rules must be fairly employed across an employee base.
Second, seven sick days in five months is high. What remains to be seen is how does this compare to others? What firm policy is in place and fairly applied? How many days does one get a year (one cannot take a pro-rata absenteeism and project it to a total year, you might never miss a day again). Also, if 8am was a condition of employment, they may have a chip on you, but remember, if you haven't signed anything admitting late days, its your word against theirs.
Third, you cannot change the nature of someone's job without consultation, indicate that the current job will be phased out and then reinstate the job after constructively dismissing the person who would not take on a changed and expanded job.
Fourth, you cannot tell people that they must declare their future employment desires, which are entirely unforseseen, unless the company is equally making a statement of protected employment and both parties agree to the changed circumstances.
Fifth, you cannot cause someone to clock in when others don't. Again, to fairness.
If I were you, I would see one of those really low-down in-your-face law firms and begin a proceedings against them immediately. Vince, you want those guys with the gray shoes, who were they? Was it Wolske and Blue? You want the guys who just don't give a shit to get in these guys faces and you need to get yourself at least six months of damages.
C'mon you live in legal land, why not seriously consider if it is worth it to get yours!
Edit: I have no right to give you that advice because I don't know your circumstances Vince. But I do think it would we worth it to investigate your legal rights with some guys willing to work for a percentage!
First, you cannot treat someone differently than you treat others. Rules must be fairly employed across an employee base.
Second, seven sick days in five months is high. What remains to be seen is how does this compare to others? What firm policy is in place and fairly applied? How many days does one get a year (one cannot take a pro-rata absenteeism and project it to a total year, you might never miss a day again). Also, if 8am was a condition of employment, they may have a chip on you, but remember, if you haven't signed anything admitting late days, its your word against theirs.
Third, you cannot change the nature of someone's job without consultation, indicate that the current job will be phased out and then reinstate the job after constructively dismissing the person who would not take on a changed and expanded job.
Fourth, you cannot tell people that they must declare their future employment desires, which are entirely unforseseen, unless the company is equally making a statement of protected employment and both parties agree to the changed circumstances.
Fifth, you cannot cause someone to clock in when others don't. Again, to fairness.
If I were you, I would see one of those really low-down in-your-face law firms and begin a proceedings against them immediately. Vince, you want those guys with the gray shoes, who were they? Was it Wolske and Blue? You want the guys who just don't give a shit to get in these guys faces and you need to get yourself at least six months of damages.
C'mon you live in legal land, why not seriously consider if it is worth it to get yours!
Edit: I have no right to give you that advice because I don't know your circumstances Vince. But I do think it would we worth it to investigate your legal rights with some guys willing to work for a percentage!
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Uh, I hope your company also gives regular leave in addition to sick leave. In defense of vr, that one day he told them a month in advance he'd be out should be charged under regular time off, not sick time. And if The Firm was so concerned about so much sick time off, then maybe they should've had vr drag his sick ass in to work one day and infect everyone else. As for his being "chronically" late, vr said: "I was satisfying each of my responsibilities perfectly well, with the possible exception of the 8am bit. Also like most everyone else in the office, I didn't/honestly couldn't make it to my desk at the same moment every day." Even their letter said he was late "several" times. Hardly "chronic" in my eyes.
The problem is that they relied totally on vr to translate the boss' chicken-scratch without having a buckup.
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OSUsushichic
Fired up! Ready to go!
I second that. Makes me wonder about the maternity/paternity leave and things like that.
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They have a back-up, but a primary reason for hiring me in the first place was to free that person up to do other (more important) things.
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PrincessPeach
I want to ride my bicycle.
Well... yeah... that's the other totally weird part... I mean, someone's still going to have to do that. And that someone is me, because I'm the only other one who can.
So, how, exactly, am I supposed to be taking on my new, expanded, long-term team responsibilities while I do his job, too?
The sole reason we hired him was to free me up from doing that shit - so I could have more billable hours and get into more substantive projects.
Oh, and as far as the whole "playing the game" thing goes - I understand that it's kind of a necessity to some degree to play along with the man... doesn't mean I like it, and in this case, I don't think I'm going to do it anymore.
Edit - yeah... what he said... ^^^
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vr:
Sounds to me like your (rare) ability to decipher the bosses chicken scratching is the only real leverage you have at the firm. Since you're almost out the door, and they have yet to find a suitable replacement, I wonder if you could finagle a 'contract' position. You may be able to still do the typing work, at your own place, and charge them $40 an hour or something...
Regarding the 'job hopping' mentality, I've been with the same company for ~8 years. I never thought I'd stay at one job for so long, but I enjoy what I do and have moved into an ownership position. IMO, everyone's career goals should include 'becoming your own boss'. I am suspect of people I'm interviewing who can't hold a job for more than a year or two. I hate to say it, but loyalty to the company is paramount when investing in/compensating employees.
Sounds to me like your (rare) ability to decipher the bosses chicken scratching is the only real leverage you have at the firm. Since you're almost out the door, and they have yet to find a suitable replacement, I wonder if you could finagle a 'contract' position. You may be able to still do the typing work, at your own place, and charge them $40 an hour or something...
Regarding the 'job hopping' mentality, I've been with the same company for ~8 years. I never thought I'd stay at one job for so long, but I enjoy what I do and have moved into an ownership position. IMO, everyone's career goals should include 'becoming your own boss'. I am suspect of people I'm interviewing who can't hold a job for more than a year or two. I hate to say it, but loyalty to the company is paramount when investing in/compensating employees.
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NorthShoreBuck
True Madness Requires Significant Intelligence
Milli
Small companies cannot afford a backup in all cases, although I see VR added they did but that person had more important duties. In my opinion that many days off in that short of a time frame is excessive. He agreed to come in early but stated that it was difficult for him to do so. He did not say how many times he was late like he did for his days off. As an employer I see a pattern.
Small companies are governed by different rules than the government or large companies. The company he works for is not bound some of the rules for larger employers.
My company is quite generous with holidays, vacation, sick days and paid benefits. We are in business to make a profit and we rely on our employees to help us do that. If a hardworking valued employee needs a day off they get it no problems. It is the ones that are always late and always missing days that are a problem.
I do not see why the company just does not buy the head lawyer dictation software. It is cheaper than an employee and someone could quickly proofread it for a few mistakes.
Small companies cannot afford a backup in all cases, although I see VR added they did but that person had more important duties. In my opinion that many days off in that short of a time frame is excessive. He agreed to come in early but stated that it was difficult for him to do so. He did not say how many times he was late like he did for his days off. As an employer I see a pattern.
Small companies are governed by different rules than the government or large companies. The company he works for is not bound some of the rules for larger employers.
My company is quite generous with holidays, vacation, sick days and paid benefits. We are in business to make a profit and we rely on our employees to help us do that. If a hardworking valued employee needs a day off they get it no problems. It is the ones that are always late and always missing days that are a problem.
I do not see why the company just does not buy the head lawyer dictation software. It is cheaper than an employee and someone could quickly proofread it for a few mistakes.
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PrincessPeach
I want to ride my bicycle.
By the way, this is precisely the route I took in originally answering the "five-year plan" questions several months ago. Honestly, I was thinking about it. If I were to stay here, that's exactly what I'd do... start law school in the fall. However, after a lot of consideration, I know that this is not really what I want to do for the rest of my life. So, yeah, maybe I should leave that unsaid, but at this point, I feel like I don't want to deceive them any more than I want to deceive myself, so I don't want to string them along anymore. I'm trying to play it by ear right now, but I'm not sure I'll be able to maintain the pretense through another meeting with the Bobs...
And, really, my first reaction to Vincent's news that he's out of here was... well... jealousy.
So, yeah... working on the resume tonight in any case. :)
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I totally agree. And if my latency/absenteeism is the problem, I would have appreciated them telling me that, rather than simply saying, "We want to change your job! What's that? You don't want us to change your job? Huh. Well, best of luck elsewhere, sucker."
We're talking about a guy who (no joke) walks the length of the office to give me back a document so I can insert a comma.
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But NorthShore, can they allow assymetry in the way they treat vr as opposed to others? Can they alter their basic conditions of employment? Can they alter his conditions of employment, indicate a change of job function, declare him unsuitable and then return to the original job? Again, I am not there but I have run some small and big companies there and here and I don't think that stuff would be legal anywhere.
Being a small company allows you certain latitude but basic law must still hold? Am I right, some of you legal guys chirp okay?
Being a small company allows you certain latitude but basic law must still hold? Am I right, some of you legal guys chirp okay?
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