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Fraternity Members?(Merged)

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Eh, not sure if posting this is even worth my time, but none the less.<o></o>
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I was in a Fraternity (Delta Chi) <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1>Kent</st1></st1:country-region> but the things that most people here are describing are the farthest thing from what we were. When I joined, there were 14 members, every one of them having a full time job to pay for school. Of the 14, 5 were from either the Navy or Army. Throughout my time in the chapter, we were always the blue collar types… we didn’t have elitist parties, matter of fact nearly everyone that showed up could come in. <o></o>
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The other thing is that we didn’t really buy beer for everyone. While we had beer, we mostly held to the BYOB standard.<o></o>
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All negative things being said aside, I was better prepared for the *real world* from being President of a fraternity and getting involved in Student Gov’t etc than I did in any of the classes I took.<o></o>
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Anyways, from my experience professionally since graduation, by far the single common denominator for those that I work with that are exceptional is that they all have Farternity/Sorority backgrounds.<o></o>
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And on that note, I won’t read this thread again :)<o></o>
 
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Actually, this debate has virtue, despite some of the insults and stereotyping going back and forth.

Can a fraternity or other social organization teach values, social skills, and community service? Yes. Can it encourage athletic and academic achievement? Yes. Can it encourage honor and virtue with respect to the treatment of women? Yes. Can it be racially integrated? Yes. Can it be respectful of the personal and religious beliefs of it's members? Yes.

I know, because I saw all of those things in mine, and I valued them both then and now.

Were there negative aspects? Absolutely. The institutionalization of alcoholism is a major problem, even in "good" fraternities. The system of having "test files" is academic fraud. Even non-hazing fraternities end up mistreating pledges, and the nonsense that they're "building" better men is pure garbage. There is NOTHING some 22 year old drunk knows about being a man, never mind how to build an 18 year old into one. Hazing is absurd, because it's merely the blind leading the blind, with no accountibility or control.

Many fraternities are too homogeneous in terms of social class and neighborhood. Even the most diverse ones are dominated by children of the upper middle class.

All fraternity chapters fall somewhere within that range of virtue and vice; with stories that fall between honorable and horrible. Even within the same national organization, there are chapters which are model citizens on their campuses, and chapters which are forced to leave due to an inability to follow even the most basic of campus rules.

What I do advocate is a system of both colleges and national organizations working with local chapters to improve the long-term value that they give to their members. Many nationals are bringing in new and progressive programs to encourage true personal growth and development. Belonging to an organization can, and should, teach teamwork, leadership and self-sacrifice. It should teach group goals, responsibility and accountability.

Those are the things that last with you for a lifetime. Getting hammered and getting laid aren't going to do much for your life 20 years down the road, except maybe get you into a recovery program and on Valtrex.

Please keep in mind that I'm writing this through the eyes and reflections of a 36 year old, and those days feel as if they were half a lifetime ago. I know it sounds as if I'd take all of the fun out of fraternity life, but frankly, the things I remember and value are the those skills and experiences which helped me later.

Looking back at it knowing what I know now, I could have chosen a number of different routes to achieve those aims, and as much as I liked my fraternity, I wouldn't do it again.

In my view and experience, fraternity life has some definite benefits, but still needs significant improvement to return towards reaching the ideals that it was initially created to seek.
 
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Muck said:
Let's put this into perspective for a second:

Between the ages of 18-22 my brothers are training every day so that they can ensure their survival and the survival of their brothers when they go into combat.

Of the first four years in my brotherhood roughly half (if not more) of it is spent overseas. In fun vacation spots like Beirut, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Bosnia etc.

My brothers are reminded on a near daily basis that ultimately their job is to kill. They also know that elsewhere around the world there are folks training for the express purpose of becoming better at killing Marines.

Yes there may be some similarities between fraternal groups...a feeling of comraderie blah blah blah. However anyone who beliefs the similarities between being in a college fraternity for four years and being a member of a organization whose basic mission is to "locate, close with and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver" are anything more than the most superficial & tenuous is sadly misinformed.

737 of my brothers have perished in combat areas over the past 4 years.

PS - I certainly hope you are not associate the "faggish frat boy" label with my statements. To be very clear I said "milk teated mama's boys". :)
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Not sure when I referred to the rigors of fraternal roles on par with military duties.

We all feel the grief when we lose someone that is part of our family, circle of friends, community, or country. I don't think it's fair to say that, because you were part of the Marine Corps, you are the only type of person who is able to grief over one of our fallen brethren.

Let us not classify people into categories based on ignorance or lack of desire to affiliate. I never wore my collar on end or fell into your typical frat boy look. I feel sorry for you select few that are grouping everyone associated with a Greek organization under your interpretation based on your experiences or lack thereof. I'm somewhat taken aback by statements made by some members of Buckeye Planet I respect(ed). I'll remove myself from this conversation based on prejudice and lack of substance of some involved.
 
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The alumni magazine for May/June has a 1-page article on the 'Greek communnity'. Here are some quotes from the article:

"Five years ago the Greek Life Task Force laid out a challenge - the Standards of Excellence - that has resulted in a higher grade point average, increased community service, greater safety awareness, and stronger diversity education for the men and women of the Greek community."

"The university is home to 59 fraternities and sororities. Total membership in the Greek community stands at 2,415, up from 1,893 in 2002."

"Back in winter quarter 2001, Greeks overall had an average GPA of 2.85. For winter quarter 2006, the average climbed to 3.13."

"Saftey and alcohol abuse, two issues that go hand in hand, continue to pose challenges for the Greek community..."
 
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gbearbuck said:
hit the nail on the head :roll1: ... those must be from the same folks that stereotype non-greeks as nonsocial (untrue), unable to network (untrue), do nothing but party and get drunk (probably as true as any other college student... although the non-greeks do get labeled as less partiers/social), not willing to do community service in and around campus (the greeks seem to be the ones cleaning the vandalism), not as smart (the average gpa of greeks was substantially higher than the average student at OU), etc., etc...:tongue2:
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Care to show any research that backs up these "stereotypes"? If you look at the most recent studies on the Millennials (current generation in college), you will find that almost none of these are true. On the other hand, higher education research speaks often of many of the stereotypes about fraternities which I listed above as being factual to some degree. Overblown, yes, but still present.

"Back in winter quarter 2001, Greeks overall had an average GPA of 2.85. For winter quarter 2006, the average climbed to 3.13."
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I always hear about higher GPAs in the fraternity system, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. If you look at the research on students' cognitive development in college, which is a much better measure of someone's progress than their GPAs, you will find that the fraternity system actually has negative affects (specifically in reading comprehension, mathematics, critical thinking, and composite achievement). The detriment to cognitive development is particularly strong in students' freshman year.

And just to show you that I'm not making this up, here are citations to several articles on the negative effects on cognitive development:

Pascarella, E. T., Flowers, L., & Whitt, E. J. (2001). Cognitive effects of Greek affiliation in college: Additional evidence. NASPA Journal, 38(3), 280-301.

Pascarella, E. T., et al. (1996). Cognitive effects of Greek affiliation during the first year of college. NASPA Journal, 33(4), 242-259.
 
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You're not greek just because you paid a bunch of money and had to wear sweats while not being allowed to talk to women for a semester. I don't think any pledge who was finally let in all of a sudden got a craving for a gyro.
 
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buckeyegrad said:
I always hear about higher GPAs in the fraternity system, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. If you look at the research on students' cognitive development in college, which is a much better measure of someone's progress than their GPAs, you will find that the fraternity system actually has negative affects (specifically in reading comprehension, mathematics, critical thinking, and composite achievement). The detriment to cognitive development is particularly strong in students' freshman year.
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The numbers I quoted only compared the overall GPA of Greek students in 2 different time periods at tOSU. I don't know if 3.13 is higher than the overall average at tOSU or not.

And I'm not trying to defend the Greek system, I'm neutral on the topic. But that article happened to show up yesterday, so I thought I'd post the information.
 
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BB73 said:
The numbers I quoted only compared the overall GPA of Greek students in 2 different time periods at tOSU. I don't know if 3.13 is higher than the overall average at tOSU or not.

And I'm not trying to defend the Greek system, I'm neutral on the topic. But that article happened to show up yesterday, so I thought I'd post the information.
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I realized that the comparison was between two different periods. I was just using your mention of GPA to spin off another idea.
 
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grad,

as stated in the thread, they are untrue... I was pointing out steriotypes, not facts (except for the gpa portion... the key word in the statement is "was" I have no idea if it is currently true. Also, as stated in the thread, my example pertains only to OU, I held a position with IFC and had access to the university vrs. greek numbers).

In the grand scheme of things cognitive development is much more important than gpa... unfortunatly grad schools and future employers are concerned with the degree, the gpa, the interview, the references, and to a lesser extent activities/charitable work/etc.

My opinion of college is that it is a maturing process, and a "jump through the hoop hurdle" for most professions (of course not all). I can tell you most of what I learned I do not use, and will more than likely never need. Universities strive to "mold" well rounded students. Guess what, the well rounded part has sliped my memory. Let me go in, take the classes I need for my choosen profession, and let me move along. History, political science, astronomy, health classes, third world countries, etc., etc. were/are worthless to me (heck I could make an argument that most of the business classes were of little value as well). I took those types of classes to meet the degree requirements. A big waste of money imo. I think the true value of college is learning/improving social skills, learning to be independent and live without "mom and dad", building a social/professional network, allowing a window of time to find what it is you want to do with your life (if you don't already know), great opportunity to find a spouce (not high importance, still a benefit of college), and have fun:wink2: ...
 
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gbearbuck said:
My opinion of college is that it is a maturing process, and a "jump through the hoop hurdle" for most professions (of course not all). I can tell you most of what I learned I do not use, and will more than likely never need. Universities strive to "mold" well rounded students. Guess what, the well rounded part has sliped my memory. Let me go in, take the classes I need for my choosen profession, and let me move along. History, political science, astronomy, health classes, third world countries, etc., etc. were/are worthless to me (heck I could make an argument that most of the business classes were of little value as well). I took those types of classes to meet the degree requirements. A big waste of money imo. I think the true value of college is learning/improving social skills, learning to be independent and live without "mom and dad", building a social/professional network, allowing a window of time to find what it is you want to do with your life (if you don't already know), great opportunity to find a spouce (not high importance, still a benefit of college), and have fun:wink2: ...
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This brings up an interesting topic, which as a professional in the field of higher education is of great personal concern: there are too many opportuntities for people to get a four year degree in this country.

Not everyone wants, needs, or is ready for a traditional four-year degree that entails a liberal education along with majors and minors. So why do we force people to "jump through the hoop"? We would be much better served as a society if we developed more community colleges and technical schools where individuals could be trained for the profession they want to enter. Leave the four-year colleges and universities to those who know they want or need an advanced degree and those who simply want the benefits associated with a broad, general education.
 
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buckeyegrad said:
This brings up an interesting topic, which as a professional in the field of higher education is of great personal concern: there are too many opportuntities for people to get a four year degree in this country.

Not everyone wants, needs, or is ready for a traditional four-year degree that entails a liberal education along with majors and minors. So why do we force people to "jump through the hoop"? We would be much better served as a society if we developed more community colleges and technical schools where individuals could be trained for the profession they want to enter. Leave the four-year colleges and universities to those who know they want or need an advanced degree and those who simply want the benefits associated with a broad, general education.
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Agree, and don't even get me started on online degrees!

:smash:
 
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buckeyegrad said:
This brings up an interesting topic, which as a professional in the field of higher education is of great personal concern: there are too many opportuntities for people to get a four year degree in this country.

Not everyone wants, needs, or is ready for a traditional four-year degree that entails a liberal education along with majors and minors. So why do we force people to "jump through the hoop"? We would be much better served as a society if we developed more community colleges and technical schools where individuals could be trained for the profession they want to enter. Leave the four-year colleges and universities to those who know they want or need an advanced degree and those who simply want the benefits associated with a broad, general education.
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I agree with you 100% but what has happened somewhere along the line is that we told kids either directly or indirectly that they are worthless if they have a technical degree. For some reason we started looking down at those that make the world go round. The construction workers, the auto mechanics, and the electricians of the world.
 
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High Lonesome said:
I agree with you 100% but what has happened somewhere along the line is that we told kids either directly or indirectly that they are worthless if they have a technical degree. For some reason we started looking down at those that make the world go round. The construction workers, the auto mechanics, and the electricians of the world.
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then we outsource it and piss and moan about piss poor quality...
 
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I've heard this discussion a million times in my life. Everything that has been said here has been said before, and it goes like this:

Non-fraternity members: You're just buying friends and paying to do what a normal college student with average social skills can accomplish on his own.

Fraternity members: There is brotherhood that non-fraternity members can never begin to understand, as well as other positives such as community service and increased GPAs.

For the life of me, I could never understand non-fraternity members' feeling some sort of compelling need to tell fraternity members why they were stupid for ever entering a fraternity. Why not just let them be? You made your decision and they made theirs. Let it go.
 
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