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Donald Sterling and his comments

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Buckeye513 said:
Saying that rich white people did a thing is racism? Aren't we touchy.
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harping on its whiteness certainly is. There are a lot of things in business that were invented or made popular by white people.
When the needs of the customer have nothing to do with whether the employee is a mangy hippie or not, it's exactly an exercise in social conformity. A few summers ago I interviewed for a job at a moving company. They didn't hire me because I wouldn't meet their appearance standard. Which is fine, I took another job, but that doesn't change the fact that one's ability to pick up a couch isn't really contingent on looking like Derek Jeter.
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your attitude towards the job is why your outfit is judged. They have to make a host of assumptions and fast judgments of you based on that bring interaction and clothing plays into that. I'm a photographer and graphic designer. Other than weddings, I never wear a tie let alone a suit and many of my desired workplaces would be creative, casual settings (some very adamant about comfortable and functional attire).

I would be quite foolish to show up for that interview in the outfit that I'd wear at the job.
 
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BIATCHabutuka said:
professionalism standard isn't set by anyone, it is set by everyone aka the market.


while your appearance may not have impacted your ability to lift a couch, it would impact the perceived value from the customer though and would make future jobs more difficult to acquire for the business.

when you are hiring, you often aren't looking for the best person. you are looking for the safest person generally that fills that need and is zero risk to the HR person.

you gotta put yourself in the HR person's position.

they have zero tangible skill.

their job is to hire someone else to do all the work.

often it is work they themselves know nothing about.


call me a butcher, but one bad hire means i have two job openings, the replaced bad hire and my entirely disposable HR person.
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This is what people don't understand, there's a lot at stake when you hire someone. It's not that I personally have anything against anyone with purple hair, neck and face tats and a bone through their nose but if my district manager was to ever walk in and see someone like that the first thing he's going to ask is who hired this person. There goes my future with the company.
 
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Buckeye513 said:
Saying that rich white people did a thing is racism? Aren't we touchy.
When the needs of the customer have nothing to do with whether the employee is a mangy hippie or not, it's exactly an exercise in social conformity. A few summers ago I interviewed for a job at a moving company. They didn't hire me because I wouldn't meet their appearance standard. Which is fine, I took another job, but that doesn't change the fact that one's ability to pick up a couch isn't really contingent on looking like Derek Jeter.

My issue isn't really with you conforming to the sensibilities of your employer. It's with people talking about standards of professionalism as if they were 1) objective and 2) completely rational, neither of which is true.
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As the old adage goes, "You never get a second chance to make a first impression". I had a lunch interview a bit ago, where I showed up in a suit and tie and the person who would be my boss showed up in jeans and a polo. I didn't care how he looked, I cared how I looked and that was professional. Perception plays a huge role in any hiring.
 
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Fungo Squiggly said:
But can you understand why someone would not want to conform with the norms of the ruling power when that group enslaved and oppressed their race for hundreds of years? And, as much as people want to pretend it is, this [Mark May] isn't ancient history.

"Okay, okay -- you can sit in the front of the bus, use our bathrooms, department stores, and water fountains...maybe...MAYBE...even marry our daughters someday. But if you want a good job, you better learn some goddamned respect and starting dressing and talking like us, too!
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I can certainly understand that mentality, though I'd argue most people dislike conforming to the rules of the man.

More importantly, I'd argue that taking a vigilant stand against blue collar etiquette because of past racism is a fantastic way to preserve racial division.
 
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Mike80 said:
When I was taking classes in the CEPL at GWU, the Lt. General in command of my agency emphasized that how you present yourself, in dress and appearance but in how you handle the situation in front of you, not only reflects on the agency (he said his agency and it is) but it mostly reflects on you as a person.

His name is Ronnie Hawkins, Jr. Look him up. He's easily the best commander DISA has had in the 15 years I've been in and out of the agency.
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I met Ronnie Hawkins several times when he was a full colonel (he was PACAF/CS at the time)...good guy.
 
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DubCoffman62 said:
This is what people don't understand, there's a lot at stake when you hire someone. It's not that I personally have anything against anyone with purple hair, neck and face tats and a bone through their nose but if my district manager was to ever walk in and see someone like that the first thing he's going to ask is who hired this person. There goes my future with the company.
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exactly. people don't understand the personal risk / reward thing going on in business interactions. very important to being able to guide events to your desired outcome.



i write PVC formulas.

love it.

when i look at replacing one chemical with another, often it is cost driven. there is a projected savings. reward for the company sure, but for me that is risk. sure any additional profit will increase my annual bonus, but 100% of the risk is mine alone in the organization, i'd be the only guy getting whacked. my reward is an incremental bump in our profits which leads to a tiny bump in everyone's bonus. very little reward for the VG compared to the risk. why then do i have the reputation of a cowboy compounder, pride. pride in your work is key for any success, white or black, but i digress.

i talk about this with the vendors all the time. how they need to convince the hell out of me to stick my neck out. gotta bend that price back down somehow. . . .


as for race and professionalism in hiring, for a retail outlet you hire to your audience. it isn't racisim, its just business.


when the local chain restaurant hires a bunch of big titty waitresses is that sexism? no its awesome and why i eat there three times a week. do i hate men by eating there, no i just like looking at boobs. is it wrong of appleby's to exploit this for profit, fuck no. does appleby's hate men, hell no have you seen the eye candy at this place.



note this place for me is not my local appleby's. it is actually a local chicken wing themed place with only 2 locations. the food is only decent, the babes are outstanding though. i used appleby's for an example, why, i have no idea.
 
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Bucklion said:
In your mind, but then you don't run a business that we are talking about, I don't imagine.
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No. Feel free to educate me as to how hiring a capable individual with a facial piercing would lead to anarchy. I'm guessing your company doesn't deal exclusively with the microfraction of the population that would be offended by a lip ring.
BIATCHabutuka said:
while your appearance may not have impacted your ability to lift a couch, it would impact the perceived value from the customer though and would make future jobs more difficult to acquire for the business.
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I would make a large bet that none of my potential customers would've given a fuck about my beard and tattoos.
jwinslow said:
harping on its whiteness certainly is. There are a lot of things in business that were invented or made popular by white people. your attitude towards the job is why your outfit is judged. They have to make a host of assumptions and fast judgments of you based on that bring interaction and clothing plays into that. I'm a photographer and graphic designer. Other than weddings, I never wear a tie let alone a suit and many of my desired workplaces would be creative, casual settings (some very adamant about comfortable and functional attire).

I would be quite foolish to show up for that interview in the outfit that I'd wear at the job.
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I know why employers judge appearance. I'm not sure what you're arguing.
 
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BIATCHabutuka said:
professionalism standard isn't set by anyone, it is set by everyone aka the market.
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True -- but the members of the market have a sense of "professionalism" that is defined strictly by the culture in which they were raised. There is no natural law of professionalism -- it is entirely societal. Each subsequent generation only follows along because "that's the way it is" (cue Bruce Hornsby and the Range) -- which, by the way, is a truly fucking stupid reason to keep doing something. And the market that originally set the standard that we still abide by WAS almost exclusively white.

DubCoffman62 said:
This is what people don't understand, there's a lot at stake when you hire someone. It's not that I personally have anything against anyone with purple hair, neck and face tats and a bone through their nose but if my district manager was to ever walk in and see someone like that the first thing he's going to ask is who hired this person. There goes my future with the company.
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I don't think anyone is arguing whether or not that is true -- just that's its really dumb. An individual should be judged on merit and quality of person, not on appearance.

We all know it doesn't happen like that, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't.
 
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Fungo Squiggly said:
I don't think anyone is arguing whether or not that is true -- just that's its really dumb. An individual should be judged on merit and quality of person, not on appearance.

We all know it doesn't happen like that, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't.
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If Johnny comes by to pick up your daughter for a date, will you be asking him deep philosophical, political and socioeconomic questions in the few minutes while she finishes getting ready? :nerd:

Or will it matter if he shows up in an outfit designed to stick it to the man who said he shouldn't wear a pink kilt, a monocle and roller shoes? :cool:
 
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jwinslow said:
I can certainly understand that mentality, though I'd argue most people dislike conforming to the rules of the man.

More importantly, I'd argue that taking a vigilant stand against blue collar etiquette because of past racism is a fantastic way to preserve racial division.
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Yeah, I get that. It does preserve "acting black" vs "acting white". But what's the only solution being presented? Act whiter to fit in with the professional standards that were established 100 years ago by guys that wouldn't even let you use the same public bathroom as them.

Ideally, racial division wouldn't even be thing, though. Nobody should care if somebody was named DaJuan or Hayden or Billy Ray -- nobody should care if they were black, or had pink hair, or had tattoos, or had their eyebrow pierced, or wore baggy clothes. None of that should matter a whit. Every person should be judged solely on their merit. But that's not how it is and it's stupid.

I understand that in today's society how a person dresses and speaks is used to judge their merit as a person, it's just seems like a really arbitrary way to do it.

jwinslow said:
If Johnny comes by to pick up your daughter for a date, will you be asking him deep philosophical, political and socioeconomic questions in the few minutes while she finishes getting ready? :nerd:

Or will it matter if he shows up in an outfit designed to stick it to the man who said he shouldn't wear a pink kilt, a monocle and roller shoes? :cool:
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Fucking hipsters. :shake:

Like I said earlier, I totally get it. I'm a complete hypocrite about it. I DO judge people based on gender, skin color, appearance -- but that doesn't mean it's right.
 
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Black folks object to having to "act white" to get work. I get it. But as someone who sells professional services, I've had to call on racists and swallow my tongue when they spouted off some objectionable thing or other about black folks, and I've had to call on homophobes and on, frankly, crooks, and had to prevent myself from saying something that would prevent my company from getting work. Unfortunately, the business world often requires dressing, talking and acting in ways that we would prefer not to. Sometimes that may mean "talking like a white person," other times it means removing that tongue ring, removing the rainbow bumper sticker or concealing the tattoo.

None of that is racist; it's just business. Smart black folks (and smart gay folks, and smart Jews, and so on) understand that, don't whine, suck it up and thrive. Those who wish to be victims are the ones who generally piss off white non-racists who just want to get work done.

Having said all this, nobody should think I'm minimizing the effects of racism that still exists.
 
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