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Coronavirus (COVID-19) is too exciting for adults to discuss (CLOSED)

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I was going to keep my thoughts to myself on that topic, but since you asked...

I'm 87% sure I'm not a monster
I'm 63% sure that the experts should continue to discuss whether the kids can go back to school

Based on a lot of what I've seen on the internet lately, most people consider it impossible for a non-monster to think we should consider sending the kids back. Since you asked, I'm hoping that you'll hear me out.

For the kids to go back to school we really need to determine only one thing: Is the risk posed by SARS-CoV-2 greater than the other risks associated with sending them back to school. If it's not the biggest risk of sending them back, by all means send them.

But that one thing is made up of a lot of little things, and that's where it gets complicated.
  • What is the risk of a child contracting SARS-CoV-2?
  • What is the risk of a child getting seriously ill from SARS-CoV-2, once they've contracted it?
  • What is the risk of a child bringing SARS-CoV-2 home from school and passing it to an at-risk family member?
Based on information reported by the CDC and the Mayo Clinic, school-age children (3-18) react differently to this virus than adults do. Why is unknown, but it is clear that they contract the virus less frequently and they get seriously ill much less frequently. More to the point, children that are not in a well defined, well understood group are actually at very little risk. That group, as many of you already know, comprises those with type-2 diabetes, congenital heart conditions, certain conditions affecting the nervous system or metabolism and a few, rare genetic mutations. If kids in this group are kept home at first, the risk to the kids appears to be less than other, pre-existing risks that we have always taken to send our kids to school. The risk is not zero, but it never was zero.

This still leaves open the issue of kids bringing the disease home to family members, some of whom may be in at-risk groups. And this is by far the weirdest part of this disease to me. It appears that children who have the virus are far less likely to spread the virus than are adults. As with all of the other differences between children and adults in this thing, we only have theories as to why; no one really knows. What is clear is that the overwhelming majority of children who have contracted the disease have caught it from an adult, and that very few people seem to have caught it from children. This is not just the strangest part of this epidemic; it is the hardest part of it to study. There's nothing worth citing; no p-values to report; just a lot of doctors reporting what they see and researches staring at each other with open mouths behind their masks.

With all of these unknowns, why consider it? Well... Before I go there, it actually gets worse.

As many of you have heard, there is a new strain of the virus. It is actually more contagious than the previous version (and appears to have replaced it, worldwide). It may be more accurate to say that it is more tenacious than the original strain, the point being that this is something that the researchers do understand. So all of the information that we have about the kids... how much of that applies to the new strain? We don't know yet.

So with all of that, how could anyone consider it?

Because in the time-line of this disease, a lot will change in the next two months, and then very little will change for a very long time.

This is not like SARS. It's not going to go away; it's not that kind of virus. But it's not quite like the common cold either (though some doctors are saying it is, the VAST majority disagree with that point of view). If you follow the curves of certain places (Spain, Italy, New York, New Jersey) and compare it to the curves in the current hot-spots like Florida and Texas, it looks like we may have a very different landscape in those places in a month. Many places around the world seem to be in a post-epidemic phase of the disease. The disease isn't gone; but it's not going to be filling hospitals any time soon. The same will soon be true of a lot of other places. But the virus is not going to disappear completely for a long time, probably for several years at least.

Once the post-epidemic phase is reached, the schools should be reopened (unless the newer strain is unlike the old one in ways we don't yet know, in which case we're boned no matter what). At that point, SARS-CoV-2 will not be the biggest risk associated with sending the kids back to school. The important thing to realize here is that every state, and in some states every city, will have a different date when that can happen. Florida appears that it MIGHT be peaking right now. California appears to be still climbing, fast. Though they appear to be neck and neck, they will have very different time-lines, going forward. Some states that haven't seen much of this yet may be on fire with it in October. The timing needs to be handled locally.

All I'm saying is that the experts should continue to monitor the situation and make the decision when they have enough information to make it, which is not now. If the bureaucrats in a given locale are inefficient enough to require 2-months-notice to make a decision (we should not accept this level of incompetence, though we've come to expect it), then let them decide to delay (or start with distance-learning), for now. But at some point we're going to know if the current trajectories are going to hold. At some point they'll have to go back. If we wait until this virus is gone, we may have failed an entire generation of kids so that we could save a number that may end up being fewer than the number who will die in bus accidents over that time. (Please don't do "math" on that to try to prove it "wrong". Note the use of the word "may" in that sentence and the fact that any of the numbers that you do the "math" with will be based on conjecture while I'm suggesting waiting until we have solid numbers on the new strain, which we'll have in a month).

I’m with you on your reasoning and many of the points you’ve brought up I’ve read.

FWIW, our district is doing a hybrid model. M/TH or T/F and deep cleaning on W. For the most part, everyone seems thrilled with what our school board has put together.
 
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Same here but expect that to change before school starts.

Expect what to change? The schedule or people being thrilled with the school board? LOL.

I’m perfectly happy, all things considered, with where they landed. There is a ‘virtual academy’ for any families who have any concerns about in-person based learning. I should have mentioned that in the first post. I do think that the addition of the virtual academy is a very good thing as every situation is different. Glad that the board added that option for any families that have a comorbidity in the HH that would put anyone at risk.

I do have to take my hat off to the teachers who will be in the classrooms four days a week. Praying for their safety.
 
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Same here but expect that to change before school starts.
Our school board is voting on a similar model on Monday. We are preparing to go full online if something were to happen that would force us to close, but also to go full in house if things improve.

I'm out in the woods of NH where virtually nobody has Covid and the "it's all a hoax" crowd is half the population. Many in our community want us back with no restrictions.

Finally, sparcbox, maybe your district is different than mine, but no school board I know came forth with any plan whatsoever. It was the result of hundreds of hours of work from administration and nurses/teachers. And the nurses and teachers are giving up vacation time without pay to do this stuff. I personally have sat in on 40+ hours of meetings in July alone.
 
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Expect what to change? The schedule or people being thrilled with the school board? LOL.

I’m perfectly happy, all things considered, with where they landed. There is a ‘virtual academy’ for any families who have any concerns about in-person based learning. I should have mentioned that in the first post. I do think that the addition of the virtual academy is a very good thing as every situation is different. Glad that the board added that option for any families that have a comorbidity in the HH that would put anyone at risk.

I do have to take my hat off to the teachers who will be in the classrooms four days a week. Praying for their safety.
Sorry, should have been clearer. I expect all students to start the year online.
 
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Our school board is voting on a similar model on Monday. We are preparing to go full online if something were to happen that would force us to close, but also to go full in house if things improve.

I'm out in the woods of NH where virtually nobody has Covid and the "it's all a hoax" crowd is half the population. Many in our community want us back with no restrictions.

Finally, sparcbox, maybe your district is different than mine, but no school board I know came forth with any plan whatsoever. It was the result of hundreds of hours of work from administration and nurses/teachers. And the nurses and teachers are giving up vacation time without pay to do this stuff. I personally have sat in on 40+ hours of meetings in July alone.


Not being an educator I have no line of sight into how it all was brewed up. The school board, however, were the ones to present the plan in online meetings with the families in the district.

I’m sure there were many people who were responsible for coming up with the plans.
 
Upvote 0
I was going to keep my thoughts to myself on that topic, but since you asked...

I'm 87% sure I'm not a monster
I'm 63% sure that the experts should continue to discuss whether the kids can go back to school

Based on a lot of what I've seen on the internet lately, most people consider it impossible for a non-monster to think we should consider sending the kids back. Since you asked, I'm hoping that you'll hear me out.

For the kids to go back to school we really need to determine only one thing: Is the risk posed by SARS-CoV-2 greater than the other risks associated with sending them back to school. If it's not the biggest risk of sending them back, by all means send them.

But that one thing is made up of a lot of little things, and that's where it gets complicated.
  • What is the risk of a child contracting SARS-CoV-2?
  • What is the risk of a child getting seriously ill from SARS-CoV-2, once they've contracted it?
  • What is the risk of a child bringing SARS-CoV-2 home from school and passing it to an at-risk family member?
Based on information reported by the CDC and the Mayo Clinic, school-age children (3-18) react differently to this virus than adults do. Why is unknown, but it is clear that they contract the virus less frequently and they get seriously ill much less frequently. More to the point, children that are not in a well defined, well understood group are actually at very little risk. That group, as many of you already know, comprises those with type-2 diabetes, congenital heart conditions, certain conditions affecting the nervous system or metabolism and a few, rare genetic mutations. If kids in this group are kept home at first, the risk to the kids appears to be less than other, pre-existing risks that we have always taken to send our kids to school. The risk is not zero, but it never was zero.

This still leaves open the issue of kids bringing the disease home to family members, some of whom may be in at-risk groups. And this is by far the weirdest part of this disease to me. It appears that children who have the virus are far less likely to spread the virus than are adults. As with all of the other differences between children and adults in this thing, we only have theories as to why; no one really knows. What is clear is that the overwhelming majority of children who have contracted the disease have caught it from an adult, and that very few people seem to have caught it from children. This is not just the strangest part of this epidemic; it is the hardest part of it to study. There's nothing worth citing; no p-values to report; just a lot of doctors reporting what they see and researches staring at each other with open mouths behind their masks.

With all of these unknowns, why consider it? Well... Before I go there, it actually gets worse.

As many of you have heard, there is a new strain of the virus. It is actually more contagious than the previous version (and appears to have replaced it, worldwide). It may be more accurate to say that it is more tenacious than the original strain, the point being that this is something that the researchers do understand. So all of the information that we have about the kids... how much of that applies to the new strain? We don't know yet.

So with all of that, how could anyone consider it?

Because in the time-line of this disease, a lot will change in the next two months, and then very little will change for a very long time.

This is not like SARS. It's not going to go away; it's not that kind of virus. But it's not quite like the common cold either (though some doctors are saying it is, the VAST majority disagree with that point of view). If you follow the curves of certain places (Spain, Italy, New York, New Jersey) and compare it to the curves in the current hot-spots like Florida and Texas, it looks like we may have a very different landscape in those places in a month. Many places around the world seem to be in a post-epidemic phase of the disease. The disease isn't gone; but it's not going to be filling hospitals any time soon. The same will soon be true of a lot of other places. But the virus is not going to disappear completely for a long time, probably for several years at least.

Once the post-epidemic phase is reached, the schools should be reopened (unless the newer strain is unlike the old one in ways we don't yet know, in which case we're boned no matter what). At that point, SARS-CoV-2 will not be the biggest risk associated with sending the kids back to school. The important thing to realize here is that every state, and in some states every city, will have a different date when that can happen. Florida appears that it MIGHT be peaking right now. California appears to be still climbing, fast. Though they appear to be neck and neck, they will have very different time-lines, going forward. Some states that haven't seen much of this yet may be on fire with it in October. The timing needs to be handled locally.

All I'm saying is that the experts should continue to monitor the situation and make the decision when they have enough information to make it, which is not now. If the bureaucrats in a given locale are inefficient enough to require 2-months-notice to make a decision (we should not accept this level of incompetence, though we've come to expect it), then let them decide to delay (or start with distance-learning), for now. But at some point we're going to know if the current trajectories are going to hold. At some point they'll have to go back. If we wait until this virus is gone, we may have failed an entire generation of kids so that we could save a number that may end up being fewer than the number who will die in bus accidents over that time. (Please don't do "math" on that to try to prove it "wrong". Note the use of the word "may" in that sentence and the fact that any of the numbers that you do the "math" with will be based on conjecture while I'm suggesting waiting until we have solid numbers on the new strain, which we'll have in a month).
Good stuff, DBB.

Regarding transmission by kids, there was a study from South Korea last week that showed that older kids (10 to 19) spread the virus at least as much as adults. This report, if accurate, sucks.

COVID-19 spread fastest by teens and tweens, South Korean study finds

Older children are more likely to spread COVID-19 within a household than younger children and adults, according to a new study of 5,706 coronavirus patients in South Korea.

The researchers traced and tested nearly 60,000 people who had contact with the infected people and found that, on average, 11.8 percent of household contacts tested positive for COVID-19, according to the early release of a study published on the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention website.

Cont’d ...
 
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Good stuff, DBB.

Regarding transmission by kids, there was a study from South Korea last week that showed that older kids (10 to 19) spread the virus at least as much as adults. This report, if accurate, sucks.

While the report sucks donkey balls, it is good information to have before the end of July.

EDIT: Upon reflection, it seems to me that older kids are likely to do better than the younger ones with distance learning. And starting out with just younger kids in the schools, you can spread them out to more classrooms (keeping all the teachers employed).
 
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Not being an educator I have no line of sight into how it all was brewed up. The school board, however, were the ones to present the plan in online meetings with the families in the district.

I’m sure there were many people who were responsible for coming up with the plans.
I understand, and sorry if it came off as salty. Having been in Ed for nearly 20 years, I'm not the biggest fan of school boards!
 
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Damn straight.

You don’t want to be the guy that passed it to the guy that passed it to the guy that passed it to Justin Fields, who gets a positive test result in the middle of November.

Really, you don’t. So wear a frickin’ mask.

So damn true. Well put BB. The crazy thing with my experience with this is the close contact that we share at our house. Just like the close contact that everyone in the world shares at their house with their loved ones. I "suspect" that my son and I were exposed on June 27th, with my wife right there with us at an outing in Cleveland. She and I shared the same bed for 9 days before I thought something might be wrong, and displaced myself to the couch for the next 2 weeks. After our positive tests, my son and I wore masks in our house and basically carried a bottle of hand sanitizer with us at all times to clean before we touched anything in the house. My wife and daughter both tested negative 3 days later and a week after that. We're all negative now. BUT, the big question remains, are he and I now "immune." And even if we are, my wife and daughter are not. And NO WAY do I want to bring it home to them and start this shit all over again.

WEAR your mask. WASH your hands. And PLEASE stay healthy my Buckeye Brothers.

Peace
 
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Ultra violet light for school and businesses

One approach to battling such airborne-spread of coronavirus that’s capturing attention is a century-old technology, known as germicidal ultraviolet air disinfection, or GUV, that zaps harmful airborne germs. In modern use, the lights are tucked inside air conditioning systems or mounted high above people’s heads near ceiling fans that draw the air up so the lights can disarm the germs.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/me...oronavirus-in-schools-and-offices/ar-BB17dv5m
 
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