Cleveland Indians 2015 Thread of Barely Restrained Contempt (BALLS)

[Magua]

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/55056/ranking-the-teams-6-through-1-2

4. Cleveland Indians

Big offseason moves: Acquired 1B/OF Brandon Moss from the A's for 2B Joe Wendle; signed RHP Gavin Floyd.

Most intriguing player:Corey Kluber beat out Felix Hernandez for the American League Cy Young Award, becoming one of the least likely winners in the award's history. Simple question: Can he do it again?

Due for a better year:Jason Kipnis was an All-Star in 2013 and finished 11th in the MVP voting but suffered an oblique injury in April and played through it all season. He also hurt his finger working out in December and had surgery but is expected to be ready for spring training. After creating about 101 runs in 2013 he slipped to 53 in 2014. Expect a nice bounce back.

Due for a worse year:Michael Brantley hit .317/.385/.506 and finished third in the MVP voting. While I'm believing in most of the power uptick, he was a .277 hitter entering the season. He should be good again, but I would expect something closer to a 5-WAR season than a 7-WAR one.

I'm just the messenger: The Indians did not have a good defensive outfield in 2014, ranking 29th in the majors in defensive runs saved at minus-37. They ranked last in ultimate zone rating at minus-39.9 runs, so different metrics agree that they were lousy in the outfield. Have they fixed the problem? Not necessarily. The biggest culprit was David Murphy at minus-17 DRS;Michael Bourn was rated at minus-6 and Brantley at minus-3. Of the various subs, all rated below average except Tyler Holt. Bourn and Brantley are slated to start again in center and left, but right field is open. Considering Murphy didn't hit either, it seems unlikely he wins the job on a regular basis. Brandon Moss can play out there and he's rated at plus-3 runs over the past three seasons, but he's also coming off hip surgery. Cleveland's best bet is for better performances from Bourn and Brantley but don't be surprised if Holt ends up getting a lot of time in the outfield.

The final word: Picking the Indians to win the Central isn't really a radical pick -- they won 85 games last season and 92 in 2013. The offense should be above average, especially if Kipnis and Moss are healthy. And while the defense is questionable (last in the majors in overall DRS), the young rotation has come together. Kluber, Carlos Carrasco, Trevor Bauer, Danny Salazar and T.J. House should be an excellent five-man group, with depth from Floyd and Zach McAllister. Second-half stats aren't always predictive, but the Indians had the best rotation ERA in the AL after the All-Star break. Jose Ramirez or rookie Francisco Lindor will be an upgrade defensively at shortstop. Brantley, Carlos Santana, Kipnis and Yan Gomes are right in their peak years. Go support your team, Cleveland.

Prediction: 90-72

Not sure i'm so optimistic but I think we have a shot to win the central. Detroit is old, injured, and lost their best pitcher. I don't think KC can replicate last years magic and they lost Shields.

But I am excited about this season. Can't wait to go see the changes at the park and hopefully we can put a contender on the field to pull fans in. It does irk me that the fucking Browns can sell out game after game with the ineptitude they display YEAR AND AFTER YEAR but the Indians are in the bottom 5 in attendance even though most years they're at least competitive.

 

[Bucklion]

Bruce Chen = Championships

 

[Bucklion]

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/55056/ranking-the-teams-6-through-1-2



Not sure i'm so optimistic but I think we have a shot to win the central. Detroit is old, injured, and lost their best pitcher. I don't think KC can replicate last years magic and they lost Shields.

But I am excited about this season. Can't wait to go see the changes at the park and hopefully we can put a contender on the field to pull fans in. It does irk me that the fucking Browns can sell out game after game with the ineptitude they display YEAR AND AFTER YEAR but the Indians are in the bottom 5 in attendance even though most years they're at least competitive.

The Browns have also never traded back-to-back NFL MVPs because they didn't want to pay them, either. There are a lot of reasons that attendance is low, but I think the fact that it is still low despite a) having a really competitive team 2 years in a row and b) the Dolans actually spending some money recently to both bring in FAs and lock up their own talent is indicative of the fact that they lost what was basically a generation of Indians fans from 2008-2011 with their laughable mismanagement, horrible drafting, and tight-as-an-asshole pocketbook. It's going to take a while to build new ones, because the old ones are clearly not coming back. On the flip side, TV viewing is actually really high for the market, so there is at least casual interest in this team...it's just going to take a while to get people back to the park.

 

[tsteele316]

The Browns have also never traded back-to-back NFL MVPs because they didn't want to pay them, either. There are a lot of reasons that attendance is low, but I think the fact that it is still low despite a) having a really competitive team 2 years in a row and b) the Dolans actually spending some money recently to both bring in FAs and lock up their own talent is indicative of the fact that they lost what was basically a generation of Indians fans from 2008-2011 with their laughable mismanagement, horrible drafting, and tight-as-an-asshole pocketbook. It's going to take a while to build new ones, because the old ones are clearly not coming back. On the flip side, TV viewing is actually really high for the market, so there is at least casual interest in this team...it's just going to take a while to get people back to the park.

except attendance was already shitty when they traded each of those guys.

 

[Piney]

I am actually really excited for the season. Of course all everyone can talk about is the Browns, a little bit about the Cavs, and how bad the Browns are screwing up everything. The Indians are so far away from people's mind they don't realize a lot of the national publications are calling for the Indians to be one of the best teams in the American League.

Just so sad... of course the Indians will start off slow and people will just continue on ignoring the best and most consistent sports team in Cleveland.

 

[Bucklion]

except attendance was already [Mark May]ty when they traded each of those guys.

Compared to what? The 42,000+ when they sold out every game? Sure. But after averaging 28k in 2007 when they almost made the WS, they still averaged 27k in 2008, down to 22k in 2009, and down to 17k in 2010...I'd call that a trend.

 

[NFBuck]

I think it'd be kinda hard to argue against the fire sales of 2008/09 having an impact on the current attendance woes. It's been a pretty steady downward spiral since 2007, even though they've fielded competitive teams the past two seasons. I know I have friends back in NE Ohio, casual Tribe fans, that just don't go to the games anymore because they don't take them seriously. It's going to take a couple/few years of sustained success to get people to buy back in, in my IMO.

 

[Bucklion]

I think it'd be kinda hard to argue against the fire sales of 2008/09 having an impact on the current attendance woes. It's been a pretty steady downward spiral since 2007, even though they've fielded competitive teams the past two seasons. I know I have friends back in NE Ohio, casual Tribe fans, that just don't go to the games anymore because they don't take them seriously. It's going to take a couple/few years of sustained success to get people to buy back in, in my IMO.

I think the bigger key will be locking down homegrown (or home-developed, anyway) talent, which to their credit, they have started trying to do...success combined with some continuity will go a long way. It was funny, Adam the Bull on 92.3 The Fan (who has only lived here like 3 years) went off on a epic rant after Kluber won the Cy Young Award, because 3/4 of the callers and tweeters were all like "So who are they trading him for?" and he just didn't understand it...to which he got a second wave of "You NYC bum, you haven't lived here long enough to know shit" which pissed him off even more

 

[NFBuck]

I think the bigger key will be locking down homegrown (or home-developed, anyway) talent, which to their credit, they have started trying to do...success combined with some continuity will go a long way. It was funny, Adam the Bull on 92.3 The Fan (who has only lived here like 3 years) went off on a epic rant after Kluber won the Cy Young Award, because 3/4 of the callers and tweeters were all like "So who are they trading him for?" and he just didn't understand it...to which he got a second wave of "You NYC bum, you haven't lived here long enough to know [Mark May]" which pissed him off even more

They've actually done really well locking the homegrown talent since the early-mid 90's past their initial contracts. It started with guys like Manny, Thome, and Belle; then carried through last decade with C.C., Hafner, V-Mart, Grady, etc.. The problem is when they come up for FA at their 7-8 year points, when they're established as elite players that they simply out price themselves from Cleveland. And I don't think that will ever not be a problem for a franchise like the Indians. Unless they miraculously start selling out every game for 5+ years again, they're just never gonna have the revenue to match what franchises like NY, Chicago, LA, etc. can offer.

Such is life for a small market franchise. However, that can mitigated with good scouting, drafting, and player development at the minor league level. Seems like the Tribe really started to finally focus on the draft just in the past few years. So we'll see what guys like Lindor, Frazier, etc. provide over the next couple of seasons.

 

[NFBuck]

What we need is a group of core players to develop at the same time like what happened in the 90's (Thome, Manny, Belle) and early-mid 2000's (Hafner, C.C., Grady, V-Mart) to allow for a legitimate run or two. Hopefully guys like Brantley, Yan, and Kluber can intersect with the Lindors and Fraziers to form a legitimately competitive team in the near future.

 

[tsteele316]

Compared to what? The 42,000+ when they sold out every game? Sure. But after averaging 28k in 2007 when they almost made the WS, they still averaged 27k in 2008, down to 22k in 2009, and down to 17k in 2010...I'd call that a trend.

and then it jumped back up to 22k in 2011 after lebron left, then the indians hired francona, spent in FA and started winning, and attendance dropped back to 19k or so.

 

[Bucklion]

What we need is a group of core players to develop at the same time like what happened in the 90's (Thome, Manny, Belle) and early-mid 2000's (Hafner, C.C., Grady, V-Mart) to allow for a legitimate run or two. Hopefully guys like Brantley, Yan, and Kluber can intersect with the Lindors and Fraziers to form a legitimately competitive team in the near future.

Shapinetti's unbelievably shitty Al Chambers-esque drafting over like a 5 year period really sunk this franchise into shitville...hopefully, guys like Lindor, Frazier, and a handful of others (Naquin, Aguilar, whoever) will show a turnaround in that department. The Yankees can survive that. The Indians cannot.

 

[NFBuck]

Shapinetti's unbelievably [Mark May]ty Al Chambers-esque drafting over like a 5 year period really sunk this franchise into [Mark May]ville...hopefully, guys like Lindor, Frazier, and a handful of others (Naquin, Aguilar, whoever) will show a turnaround in that department. The Yankees can survive that. The Indians cannot.

Hell, even the Yankees are in dire straits right now. The new generation of Steinbrenners aren't as carefree with their spending as The Boss was. Sure, they'll still spend, but not like they did five years ago. Their roster is largely devoid of talent now, saturated with overpaid, broken down old men and their farm system is barren. Probably some rough years ahead for the evil empire...

 

[Bucklion]

Hell, even the Yankees are in dire straits right now. The new generation of Steinbrenners aren't as carefree with their spending as The Boss was. Sure, they'll still spend, but not like they did five years ago. Their roster is largely devoid of talent now, saturated with overpaid, broken down old men and their farm system is barren. Probably some rough years ahead for the evil empire...

They deserve it for A-Roid alone...

 

[Piney]

They've actually done really well locking the homegrown talent since the early-mid 90's past their initial contracts. It started with guys like Manny, Thome, and Belle; then carried through last decade with C.C., Hafner, V-Mart, Grady, etc.. The problem is when they come up for FA at their 7-8 year points, when they're established as elite players that they simply out price themselves from Cleveland. And I don't think that will ever not be a problem for a franchise like the Indians. Unless they miraculously start selling out every game for 5+ years again, they're just never gonna have the revenue to match what franchises like NY, Chicago, LA, etc. can offer.

Such is life for a small market franchise. However, that can mitigated with good scouting, drafting, and player development at the minor league level. Seems like the Tribe really started to finally focus on the draft just in the past few years. So we'll see what guys like Lindor, Frazier, etc. provide over the next couple of seasons.

They have and will continue to TRY to lock in their young talent. The problem is it is much easier to do with hitting than pitching. Since a pitcher has potential to have such a short time to earn mega bucks, they are the ones more likely to WANT to test free agency and get HUGE contracts. What did CC get from the Yankees? Lee? The Indians just can't win those free agency battles, plus they are not willing to overextend themselves on pitching deals because one arm injury turns that contract into hell on earth.

It will happen again with Kluber eventually. I am sure they will try to extend him and keep him as long as possible, but if Kluber wins another CY Young, there is no way the Indians would be able to afford him too, the Indians can't do a $25+ million per year contract to someone. BUT, the key is to win while he is here and on top of that keep trying to develop young pitching to fill in behind him.