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Cleveland Browns (official thread of Masochism 2015)

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NFBuck said:
They need to address WR, and if they have any sense, they'll do it at 12 provided one of Cooper/White/Parker is there. Receivers have been a major weakness of this outfit since the rebirth. Aside from one good year out of stone hands, and an incredible year from a semi-retarded drug addict, they've had to rely on output from career journeymen like Kevin Johnson, Quincy Morgan, Dennis Northcutt, Antonio Bryant, Andre' Davis, Mohammed Massaquoi, and Greg Little. Now they've added what's left of Dwayne Bowe (who hasn't done squat for 3 years) and another journeyman-type in Brian Hartline. I don't think it's a stretch to surmise the lack of quality WRs has played a role in the endless stream of QB flameouts this franchise has endured.
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So, one of White, Cooper, or Parker at #12 and the best DT, DE or ILB at #19 (agree with tsteele with Malcolm Brown here if available)
 
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Buckeneye said:
At 19 its possible, however Farmers belief is that WR's only effect the game a handful of plays. Which isn't necessarily true, although to an extent I agree with what he says. It wouldn't surprise me to see the front office stick to their guns on that and grab Devin in the 2nd or perhaps someone like DGB later on if he's available.
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At 19, you're taking a gamble on guys with lesser talent, or worse (especially for the clowns) guys with character issues. Farmer's line of reasoning is the exact reason they've had garbage at the position for 15 years. DGB is another Gordon waiting to happen. Maybe they're dumb enough to go after him, but I'd hope they've learned their lesson. And Devin, for as much as I love him for what he did at tOSU, is a guy that would have to be developed, as he was little more than a "run straight really fast and catch this bomb" guy in college. Anything beyond that is totally unknown with him. His "bust" potential is really high.

No, it's not a premium position like some others, but at some point, you have to give up the line of reasoning that has been a failure for a decade and a half (and netted you guys like Kevin Johnson, Quincy Morgan, Andre' Davis, Dennis Northcutt, MoMass, Brian Robiskie, et al) and give your QBs somebody worth a shit to throw to.
 
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NFBuck said:
At 19, you're taking a gamble on guys with lesser talent, or worse (especially for the clowns) guys with character issues. Farmer's line of reasoning is the exact reason they've had garbage at the position for 15 years. DGB is another Gordon waiting to happen. Maybe they're dumb enough to go after him, but I'd hope they've learned their lesson. And Devin, for as much as I love him for what he did at tOSU, is a guy that would have to be developed, as he was little more than a "run straight really fast and catch this bomb" guy in college. Anything beyond that is totally unknown with him. His "bust" potential is really high.

No, it's not a premium position like some others, but at some point, you have to give up the line of reasoning that has been a failure for a decade and a half (and netted you guys like Kevin Johnson, Quincy Morgan, Andre' Davis, Dennis Northcutt, MoMass, Brian Robiskie, et al) and give your QBs somebody worth a [Mark May] to throw to.
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I think the line of reasoning is that a dominant or good set of TE's seem to make far more of a continuous impact on the game than one very good or elite receiver.

Case in point: Look at the receiving corps for Seattle and for New England. Wilson is a slightly above average QB playing with an Elite running game and defense. Since those are easier to piece together than finding an Elite QB, I have a feeling that's the route this organization wants to go. Which I have zero issue with. However if you pair an elite defense with an above average QB and some above average pass catchers... you might have something special.
 
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With all kidding aside.. I really like Connor Shaw.. I think the kid can play



No sarcasm font.. I thought the kid played better than Manziel...
I think Shaw is as good as any QB on that roster right now
He was solid in college and comes from good stock (Dads a coach)
 
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Buckeneye said:
I think the line of reasoning is that a dominant or good set of TE's seem to make far more of a continuous impact on the game than one very good or elite receiver.

Case in point: Look at the receiving corps for Seattle and for New England. Wilson is a slightly above average QB playing with an Elite running game and defense. Since those are easier to piece together than finding an Elite QB, I have a feeling that's the route this organization wants to go. Which I have zero issue with. However if you pair an elite defense with an above average QB and some above average pass catchers... you might have something special.
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I'd agree to an extent, but comparing them to franchises like the Pats or NE is a non-starter for me. Both have outstanding head coaches, and while I think Pettine could be good, the jury is still out. Yes, NE and SEA have gotten by without elite WRs, but they both have other things going for them...namely, an elite defense and RB for Seattle, and an all-timer at QB, a HOF coach, and proven system in NE. I do think some teams can be successful without the elite (hell, I'd settle for above average) WRs, but the clowns have had dreadful WRs for all but 2 of the seasons they've been back. Then there's also the fact the clowns don't appear to have anybody in the same galaxy as a Gronk or Jimmy Graham at TE.

There's also an argument to be made the other way...recent SB Champions have had elite to very good receivers as well. Ravens (Boldin), Giants (Nicks/Cruz), Packers (Jennings/Nelson), Saints (Colston), Stillers (Ward/Holmes), Giants (Burress), Colts (Harrison/Wayne). Now, many of those guys were lower draft picks, but to this point, the clowns have not succeeded in finding one of those that can't seem to go three weeks without a drug bust. Some of that may be a function of poor QB play, but that's a chicken or the egg argument.

Bottom line, the browns have not been able to find good receivers elsewhere, so with three potentially really good ones in this draft, IMO they should grab one.
 
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NFBuck said:
I'd agree to an extent, but comparing them to franchises like the Pats or NE is a non-starter for me. Both have outstanding head coaches, and while I think Pettine could be good, the jury is still out. Yes, NE and SEA have gotten by without elite WRs, but they both have other things going for them...namely, an elite defense and RB for Seattle, and an all-timer at QB, a HOF coach, and proven system in NE. I do think some teams can be successful without the elite (hell, I'd settle for above average) WRs, but the clowns have had dreadful WRs for all but 2 of the seasons they've been back. Then there's also the fact the clowns don't appear to have anybody in the same galaxy as a Gronk or Jimmy Graham at TE.

There's also an argument to be made the other way...recent SB Champions have had elite to very good receivers as well. Ravens (Boldin), Giants (Nicks/Cruz), Packers (Jennings/Nelson), Saints (Colston), Stillers (Ward/Holmes), Giants (Burress), Colts (Harrison/Wayne). Now, many of those guys were lower draft picks, but to this point, the clowns have not succeeded in finding one of those that can't seem to go three weeks without a drug bust. Some of that may be a function of poor QB play, but that's a chicken or the egg argument.

Bottom line, the browns have not been able to find good receivers elsewhere, so with three potentially really good ones in this draft, IMO they should grab one.
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I agree on not having the Gronk/Graham TE. should the Browns pick up Heurman, combined with Barnidge and Dr Dray I think we would have a pretty fine pass catching group.

As for your receiver list - a couple things. I wouldn't call Nicks anywhere near elite and of all the teams you listed, half of them got it done on the back of their defense. The Pack haven't been able to get over the hump since being #2 in total def in 2010, the Gmen have their Dline to thank for beating Brady twice and obviously if it wasn't for the Steelers pass rush they likely wouldn't have won their matchups. Prime example when they started seeing age in their front seven and the Pack could pass block. Rodgers torched them.

There are multiple ways to building a contender and unless you have that potential future HOF QB, the next best thing to insure longevity is strength in the trenches, complimenting with defense and the run game.

Ideally I'd like Shelton or Brown at 12, then Parker at 19 should he be there. Considering the needs of the teams immediately after us, it's very possible.
 
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NFBuck said:
Bottom line, the browns have not been able to find good receivers elsewhere, so with three potentially really good ones in this draft, IMO they should grab one.
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If the Browns had Jerry Rice, Michael Irvin, and Lynn Swann, with Shannon Sharpe at TE, all in their prime, I think they could still find a way to lose 10 games.
 
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At least we only have to deal with Manziel for one more season. When he still sucks sober they will clean house next year and draft a new QB. The only thing worse than drafting Manziel where they did would be using the other first round pick on him. Should have traded him to the Cowboys for a second rounder while Hoyer was still playing well.
 
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colobuck79 said:
If the Browns had Jerry Rice, Michael Irvin, and Lynn Swann, with Shannon Sharpe at TE, all in their prime, I think they could still find a way to lose 10 games.
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Well, yeah. :lol:

jlb1705 said:
New England traded for both Randy Moss and Wes Welker back in the day. Seattle traded a [Mark May]load for Percy Harvin. Let's not pretend that these teams fundamentally devalue WRs.
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Yep. I forgot all about Welker in NE, and Moss as well. Yes, they have won with lesser guys, but again, NE has had the same system in place and ridiculous continuity at key positions for well over a decade. They're a special case. There's multiple ways to build successful teams, but the clowns are nowhere near any of them right now. The revolving door at QB is the first thing that needs to stop...and for that to happen, I think giving whomever they place there somebody to throw to that's worth a damn is a good place to start. Cleveland has had an exceptional run of shitty QBs. They've also had a run of bargain bin WRs, aside from Gordon. And Gordon is a longshot to ever play again.
 
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