Cleveland Browns (2016 thread of unrelenting dumpster conflagration)

[CFPBuckeye]

Peyton Manning, despite having no useful throwing arm, was still a surgeon in recognition of the defense and checking into proper plays, nobody in the NFL ever did it better. If you don't think that made a difference, look at Denver this year. That vaunted defense and running game has them sitting home this off season.

That's with Trevor Siemian. Osweiler was the backup and fared just as well last year. Osweiler is gone now and that could have something to do with it. Osweiler is not elite either.

Russell Wilson is certainly on the elite tier of QBs.

Russell Wilson is not "certainly" an elite QB. Just look at his play when he had a bum ankle and couldn't run. He had to be just a throwing QB and that didn't work out so well. Give Brady (he isn't a running threat to begin with) a bum ankle and see what he does. Give Roethlisberger a bum ankle and see what he does. Aaron Rodgers would still be a good QB with a bum ankle. It takes away from their ability some but they would make it work.

Russell Wilson won with defense, Marshawn Lynch and a good Oline and that win came over Peyton Manning and his historic season. That's the same Peyton Manning that is a surgeon dissecting defenses (and he was all year, until then.)

 

[ScriptOhio]

 

[tsteele316]

Flacco and Eli are talented and played well when it counted. Yeah, that's better than Dilfer but that's exactly what I said. Andy Dalton never played better when it counted. If Dilfer could do it, Andy Dalton can.

AND

The Texans won their division. The one with Andrew Luck.

umm, that's the point. dalton is twice the qb dilfer was on his best day, and even with a great defense and running game he can't get out of the first round of the playoffs. the days of the dilfer game manager are over, and have been. i don't think people remember how absolutely terrible dilfer was as qb for the ravens that year. 1,500 yards, 12 tds, 11int, 6 fumbles, 59% completion %. He was a horrible qb.

the texans have the 4th worst offense in the nfl this year, despite having a very good OL and one of the nfl's best defenses. that will get them a 1st round exit from the playoffs by virtue of marcus mariota's broken leg.

 

[CFPBuckeye]

umm, that's the point. dalton is twice the qb dilfer was on his best day, and even with a great defense and running game he can't get out of the first round of the playoffs. the days of the dilfer game manager are over, and have been. i don't think people remember how absolutely terrible dilfer was as qb for the ravens that year. 1,500 yards, 12 tds, 11int, 6 fumbles, 59% completion %. He was a horrible qb.

the texans have the 4th worst offense in the nfl this year, despite having a very good OL and one of the nfl's best defenses. that will get them a 1st round exit from the playoffs by virtue of marcus mariota's broken leg.

The point is, that if Dilfer can win a Super Bowl being THAT terrible, that there is a huge amount of gray area between that and elite that can get it done. Even just average is better than what Dilfer did that year. To say that Dilfer could be that terrible and win a Super Bowl and that every other QB who wants to win a Super Bowl has to be 1000 eleventy zillion times better just doesn't add up.

Mariota's broken leg doesn't change anything. The Texans have clinched the division win or lose and Mariota just broke his leg this past week. Without Mariota, they lost to the Jags by 3 touchdowns. With Mariota, the number 2 overall pick, the Titans were 8-6. That was no better than the Texans' record with Brock Osweiler.

 

[tsteele316]

The point is, that if Dilfer can win a Super Bowl being THAT terrible, that there is a huge amount of gray area between that and elite that can get it done. Even just average is better than what Dilfer did that year. To say that Dilfer could be that terrible and win a Super Bowl and that every other QB who wants to win a Super Bowl has to be 1000 eleventy zillion times better just doesn't add up.

Mariota's broken leg doesn't change anything. The Texans have clinched the division win or lose and Mariota just broke his leg this past week. Without Mariota, they lost to the Jags by 3 touchdowns. With Mariota, the number 2 overall pick, the Titans were 8-6. That was no better than the Texans' record with Brock Osweiler.

um, if mariota doesn't break his leg and they beat the jags, they play the texans next week for the division title.

that being said, the argument that in today's nfl you can be dilfer like and win a superbowl is simply flase, as evidenced by the guys vastly better than him that continuously fail even with great surrounding talent. the bottom line is if you want to be an annual contender, you need elite qb play, or hope that with your great surrounding cast, your above average qb can get on a heater for a few games.

 

[CFPBuckeye]

...look at Denver this year. That vaunted defense and running game has them sitting home this off season.

What running game? All they have is the defense this year. The running game has been abysmal since the first week and certainly isn't vaunted. They're 28th in the league in rushing. Sure, it's easy to stop the run when you aren't scared of the QB but teams ahead of them include Jacksonville (25th,) Cleveland (24th,) Chicago (19th,) NY Jets (13th,) Houston (6th,) San Francisco (4th.) Find good QB play on those teams. Denver's Oline sucks. The defense can't do everything. That's why they are at home. It is all they have.

um, if mariota doesn't break his leg and they beat the jags, they play the texans next week for the division title.

But he did and even up to that point, they were no better than the Texans. As it stands, the Texans can lose, the Titans can win, they finish with the same record and the Texans win the division BECAUSE the Texans already won the first matchup against Mariota.

the bottom line is if you want to be an annual contender, you need elite qb play, or hope that with your great surrounding cast, your above average qb can get on a heater for a few games.

Annual contender? It sure helps to be elite but to win it all in any given year, elite is not required. That's all I've been arguing all along.

If you would, I'd like to see your list of elite QBs.

 

[tsteele316]

What running game? All they have is the defense this year. The running game has been abysmal since the first week and certainly isn't vaunted. They're 28th in the league in rushing. Sure, it's easy to stop the run when you aren't scared of the QB but teams ahead of them include Jacksonville (25th,) Cleveland (24th,) Chicago (19th,) NY Jets (13th,) Houston (6th,) San Francisco (4th.) Find good QB play on those teams. Houston is 6th in rushing! Denver's Oline sucks. The defense can't do everything. That's why they are at home. It is now all they have.



But he did and even up to that point, they were no better than the Texans. As it stands, the Texans can lose, the Titans can win, they finish with the same record and the Texans win the division BECAUSE the Texans already won the first matchup against Mariota.



Annual contender? It sure helps to be elite but to win it all in any given year, elite is not required. That's all I've been arguing all along.

If you would, I'd like to see your list of elite QBs.

the argument from the start was that a game manager or lower level qb could win you games if you had the right supporting cast. josh mccown's name was offered specifically. then it was brought up that trent dilfer won a superbowl, to which i pointed out that the days of dilfering your way to a superbowl were over, which has yet to be refuted. the fact is you need at worst a tier 2 qb with a great supporting cast, and to have that qb play at an elite level during the playoffs to win a superbowl. otherwise, you're andy dalton.

 

[CFPBuckeye]

the argument from the start was that a game manager or lower level qb could win you games if you had the right supporting cast.

Win you games? They can't?

josh mccown's name was offered specifically.

Not by me, but he can win you games. It's just really hard on the Browns where there isn't even a single unit that is even average. Otherwise, why couldn't he win games on a team that would have actual Super Bowl aspirations? Those don't exist in Cleveland.

then it was brought up that trent dilfer won a superbowl, to which i pointed out that the days of dilfering your way to a superbowl were over, which has yet to be refuted.

Because it hasn't been done again? I could say that the days of winning a Super Bowl wih Aaron Rodgers is over because he hasn't won it since 2010. Just because it hasn't been done in some years is hardly an argument that the days of it happening are over. That argument is weak.

the fact is you need at worst a tier 2 qb with a great supporting cast, and to have that qb play at an elite level during the playoffs to win a superbowl.

That's the point. It takes a team and can be done without an elite QB. But as Mr. Dilfer would like to point out, elite QB play, even for a stretch, isn't a necessary ingredient, even if it hasn't happened since. Except it has. Brad Johnson? He had the #1 defense in the league that year and that along with his 18 completions for 215 yards, 2 tds and 1 int, were enough to beat the #1 offense in the league. He threw for 3,406 yards and 22 tds that year. There was no elite level of play from Brad Johnson that year. Fact is, if you assemble your team correctly, you can throw a Dilfer or Johnson back there and still win it all. There is nothing to say it still can't be done or that "those days are over."

 

[Buckeneye]

Point being, there are several ways to skin a cat.

Yes, elite QB's tend to win superbowls more often. At this point, with a Browns organization so devoid of talent and so craving the need to find that 'winning culture' - a couple seasons of 7-9 dare I even say 10 wins would be a great thing.

I, for the life of me, can't see a home run franchise QB in this draft. I like some of what I've seen on Mitch, but I wouldn't take him #1 overall. Likewise with Watson. The more I've seen of Kizer the more I think I wouldn't be upset taking a shot in the 2nd round at him. He showed some great potential and poise in 2015 and a good portion of what I feel I see now is a dearth of talent around him coupled with Kelly as his coach.

Right now this franchise needs safe picks and steady contributors. That's why I'm onboard for Johnathan Allen over Garrett, Elflein to solidify the Oline, lord knows a DB or two couldn't hurt and I sure wouldn't hate seeing us take a good look at Jake Butt or OJ Howard. These aren't the flashy and sexy picks, but they're the foundation for sustained success that isn't the QB spot.

I'm still disappointed we let Hoyer walk for Manziel. That's exactly what it was. Sure, he can be Rex Grossman at times, but at one point this team believed in Brian Hoyer. I would kill to have even slightly above average QB play.
Now with McCown most likely retiring we walk into 2017 with Kess, possibly RGKnee and what will be a rookie selected god-knows-where, your QB room looks like it lakes maturity.

I'll burn every thing Browns that I own if we put our cards in on Cutler.

I'm getting off track. Our time to tank was 2011 when Luck would have been available. Our time to get a decent QB was 2014 when you had Carr and Bridgewater sitting there instead we took the jackass that likes being a running chicken with his head cut off because he was a 'play maker'. Speaking of, where is KingRabuttfuck? Or whatever his name is. If you're reading, I'm still slapping the fuck out of you if you make it to a Browns tailgate. Anywho, now is not the time to not to outsmart everyone in the room. Tried that last year, passed on Bosa AND Mike Thomas. If there is a draft where trading down your second 1st round pick would be a solid plan, it's this one. Let's get the front 7 to where it needs to be, elite. Let's make our Oline a strength again. Let's continue to invest in mid-round promise where we might find more depth for skill positions. Pryor needs to be signed. You don't almost haul in 1k yards your first season playing WR on accident, you have skill. Make the surrounding cast so good that, god forbid, we should have to start the season with a QB currently on roster, this team has a real chance as being competitive week in and week out. That's all.

 

[CFPBuckeye]

I, for the life of me, can't see a home run franchise QB in this draft.

Nope.

Right now this franchise needs safe picks and steady contributors. That's why I'm onboard for Johnathan Allen.

Yes.

Elflein to solidify the Oline, lord knows a DB or two couldn't hurt and I sure wouldn't hate seeing us take a good look at Jake Butt or OJ Howard. These aren't the flashy and sexy picks, but they're the foundation for sustained success that isn't the QB spot.

Agreed.

I'm still disappointed we let Hoyer walk for Manziel.

I said at the time that rolling with Hoyer was the way to go, even knowing he wasn't a long term answer.

Let's get the front 7 to where it needs to be, elite. Let's make our Oline a strength again.

Until we strengthen the front 7 and oline, I don't give a shit who the QB is. In fact, the worse the QB, the better. That way, the Browns can build where they need to and still get better picks in the process until this thing is ready to take off.

 

[LitlBuck]

In fact, the worse the QB, the better. That way, the Browns can build where they need to and still get better picks in the process until this thing is ready to take off.

I was with your post until you said the above. I agree with building the other parts of the team before trying to get a QB but to say to keep a bad QB "the worst the QB,, the better" does not make sense. You need to have at least a decent QB just for the morale of the team.. Haslam needs to start spending some of that money he has in cap space. It is fine to try and build through the draft but you cannot do it all through the draft.

 

[CFPBuckeye]

I was with your post until you said the above. I agree with building the other parts of the team before trying to get a QB but to say to keep a bad QB "the worst the QB,, the better" does not make sense. You need to have at least a decent QB just for the morale of the team.. Haslam needs to start spending some of that money he has in cap space. It is fine to try and build through the draft but you cannot do it all through the draft.

I just think it's obvious that this is a multiple year rebuild. A couple 4-12 or 5-11 seasons help in the long run towards building depth through the draft than a 6-10 and maybe even an 8-8 year. It can't all be done through the draft but the core can be and we don't need some smarty pants QB messing that up.

 

[LitlBuck]

I just think it's obvious that this is a multiple year rebuild. A couple 4-12 or 5-11 seasons help in the long run towards building depth through the draft than a 6-10 and maybe even an 8-8 year. It can't all be done through the draft but the core can be and we don't need some smarty pants QB messing that up.

I guess you want to wait until at least 2020 before the Browns even sniff the playoffs if that is the way you want to go. I am almost at the point where I really do not care anymore with the way that this organization is structured. They need a football man in the organization and they do not have one.. Maybe 2025 with a new owner.

 

[CFPBuckeye]

I guess you want to wait until at least 2020 before the Browns even sniff the playoffs if that is the way you want to go. I am almost at the point where I really do not care anymore with the way that this organization is structured. They need a football man in the organization and they do not have one.. Maybe 2025 with a new owner.

Do you see them making the playoffs any sooner? They've made it once in 18 seasons. This team lacks talent and depth at every position. And I agree about a football man. The worst part of a pro sports team is a shitty owner and sadly it is the most frustrating because you can't fire an owner.

 

[Buckeneye]

With a franchise QB playoffs can come sooner. there isn't one in this draft or in free agency.

So the Brownies can either take a step forward, improve multiple spots, secure future picks with a trade down from your second 1st rounder then take a developmental QB low(er) or they can continue to force the issue - take a QB well above where he would normally be drafted and fail to secure what look to be great players at other positions.

I.e. almost exactly what we did in the 14'draft.