Big Ten Conference Divisions

[Taosman]

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I just don't understand this logic. Yes we are down right now, but did the games ever lose it's luster when you guys "did not hold up your end of the bargain" when you went 2-10-1 under cooper? Did the Auburn Alabama game lose it's luster because Alabama had been down prior to Nick saban? Alot of programs go through rough patches, college football in general is very cyclical and it's just our time go through it.

During the Cooper years there was a lot of talk, mostly from Michigan fans about how we weren't their big rival any more. And yes,The Game was suffering because we weren't keeping up our end. People were saying that no matter how good Cooper's teams were, they always lost to Michigan. Even the national media picked up on the "Cooper can't beat Michigan and win Bowl games" idea. I don't doubt Michigan will be good again. But the losing and timing right now has helped open the separation discussion.
Again, if Michigan were winning we probably wouldn't be having any discussion on moving The Game or separating the two rivals. There would be such a universal outrage, the very idea would be unthinkable.

 

[SloopyHangOn]

By talking about the Lakers/Celtics playing for the world championship? I think you are making a mistake in comparing a CCG with the NBA finals. The BCS championship game would be more comparable than some measely conference championship game...

Probably so.

 

[BB73]

I guess I just don't understand why everyone is starting so get testy here. This argument is getting stale. The same points are being made over and over again. Invoking basketball rivalries, and comparing NFL rivalries is reaching a bit. I love the idea of fruitful discussion, but I think most of us Buckeye fans are in consensus here in the scheme of it all. This probably will diminish the rivalry with Michigan. It sucks, but that is probably what's going to happen.

If you hate this idea so much and are appalled by the decision, your best means of protest would be to stop buying OSU gear, stop donating, and sell your tickets.

We, as fans, are not owners of this program, nor the rivalry, nor the Big Ten. We add to the fanbase, that's really about it. I think some feel that their influence is a hell of a lot more than it really is. In the end, they are going to do whatever is set in motion here. There is nothing we can do about it in the short term. The only long term means of protest would be to stop buying tickets, gear, ect. Maybe if enough people did it, the point would be made. I'd wager that it won't be the case though.

I have a feeling that the Michigan game will still be one of the hottest tickets of the year, regardless of the situation, or when it is played. As for the rivalry, well my opinion has been documented.

Let's see how this thing plays out before declaring it the death of OSU-Michigan, the Big Ten, ect. Until we get some solid information, we are going to be going in circles with our arguments.

I think that this season is already sold out for tOSU, and that changes in merchandise sales as a form of protest wouldn't be recognized before the decision in finalized in September, so you're correct in saying that such a 'protest-by-wallet' would only have a chance of being successful in the long term. And I agree that realistically it's a very small chance.

But it's possible that the decision isn't final yet, and sending e-mails can still have an impact, as indicated by Gene Smith's video posted here a little while ago. So there may still be a valid reason to continue to voice disapproval to the powers-that-be.

In my view, seeing how it plays out would take years to see how diminished The Game and the Big Ten could become if they move it. And I'd rather not find out, since I really believe I wouldn't like the answer 10 years from now. I'm not saying it would be dead, but I believe it would become less important than it could be if they left it at the end of the season; and that's not something I'm willing to sit idly by while the decision is being considered.

And I'm stating the obvious here, but anybody that's tired of the debate isn't forced to read this thread, so I don't think there's any reason that the debate shouldn't continue.

But I do agree there's limited value in talking about MLB and NBA matchups, etc.

 

[Taosman]

You'll take your Buckeye football and you'll love it or we'll find some other fat ass to fill your seat! :tongue2:

 

[DallasHusker]

OK, the Nebraska stuff has been split off, so as a (mostly) neutral observer, here's my take at this point.

Everyone can agree on:

• A conference championship game diminishes The Game, to a degree
• Despite that, a conference championship game IS happening, done deal.
• Given the above 2, the absolute best scenario is for The Game to remain as the final regular season game on Thanksgiving weekend.
• Despite that, it MAY get moved (unknown at this point)

Still somewhat up for debate:

• Would it be better for that final regular season game to be between inter or intra-conference teams
• Is a rematch, the chance to play twice, a good thing or a bad thing (related to the previous, obviously)
• And of course, the ultimate (and unwinnable) debate - HOW MUCH effect will all the above and the final outcome have on the significance of The Game in 5, 10, 20 and 50 years

 

[Muck]

I think that this season is already sold out for tOSU, and that changes in merchandise sales as a form of protest wouldn't be recognized before the decision in finalized in September, so you're correct in saying that such a 'protest-by-wallet' would only have a chance of being successful in the long term. And I agree that realistically it's a very small chance.

That is why the best way right now to voice unhappiness with the proposed plan is to contact the Big Ten Network, your cable/satellite provider & the sponsors.

If Dish/DirectTV get enough people contacting them saying they will stop paying for the Big Ten package if the split happens (or TimeWarner etc see that they'll start a large populace actively protesting having to pay for the Big Ten network as part of their base package) and the various sponsors get enough ans saying they will no longer buy their product if they continue to advertise on the BTN then that is the only realistic way to put pressure on the conference as a whole to rethink the decision.

But it's possible that the decision isn't final yet, and sending e-mails can still have an impact, as indicated by Gene Smith's video posted here a little while ago. So there may still be a valid reason to continue to voice disapproval to the powers-that-be.

Having your voice heard always has some value...and far more so if it is heard before a proposed action occurs than after.

Waiting around until after a decision is implemented before saying "hey wait!" is far less likely to achieve a desired result.

The Big Ten is the one in the position where it's easier to beg forgiveness after the fact than to ask permission before.



Who knows maybe it really is all a smoke screen so when they announce a straight geographic split the folks who were prepared to fight that will be so relieved that instead they'll weep 'thank you, oh god thank you!!!'.

 

[BB73]

OK, the Nebraska stuff has been split off, so as a (mostly) neutral observer, here's my take at this point.

Everyone can agree on:

• A conference championship game diminishes The Game, to a degree
• Despite that, a conference championship game IS happening, done deal.
• Given the above 2, the absolute best scenario is for The Game to remain as the final regular season game on Thanksgiving weekend.
• Despite that, it MAY get moved (unknown at this point)

Still somewhat up for debate:

• Would it be better for that final regular season game to be between inter or intra-conference teams
• Is a rematch, the chance to play twice, a good thing or a bad thing (related to the previous, obviously)
• And of course, the ultimate (and unwinnable) debate - HOW MUCH effect will all the above and the final outcome have on the significance of The Game in 5, 10, 20 and 50 years

On the 'Everyone can agree on' points, I believe that all except the third one are safe. The third one is a high majority (90% according to Gene Smith's e-mails), but it's not universally accepted. Also, this year it's Thanksgiving weekend, but it's usually been the Saturday before. But the important factor to most of us is that it remains the last regular season game (the before or after Turkey Day thing is a separate issue to me).

And for the last bullet point, I think that over time there could be a negative effect on the entire Big Ten, not just The Game.

 

[SloopyHangOn]

OK, the Nebraska stuff has been split off, so as a (mostly) neutral observer, here's my take at this point.

Everyone can agree on:

• A conference championship game diminishes The Game, to a degree
• Despite that, a conference championship game IS happening, done deal.
• Given the above 2, the absolute best scenario is for The Game to remain as the final regular season game on Thanksgiving weekend.
• Despite that, it MAY get moved (unknown at this point)

I don't agree with half of these things, specifically the 2 of them that are debatable opinions. The same debatable opinions being discussed in this very thread.

Still somewhat up for debate:

• Would it be better for that final regular season game to be between inter or intra-conference teams
• Is a rematch, the chance to play twice, a good thing or a bad thing (related to the previous, obviously)
• And of course, the ultimate (and unwinnable) debate - HOW MUCH effect will all the above and the final outcome have on the significance of The Game in 5, 10, 20 and 50 years

I know of no reason why the final regular season game would ever be intra-conference. I assume you meant intra-division, and in regards to the effect the divisional split will have on The Game, it's all pure speculation at this point regardless of any evidential factors. Nobody can really "debate" what the future will look like.

Your "take" on the situation seems to be nothing more than a reiteration of the last 5 pages of this thread

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[Muck]

I just don't understand this logic. Yes we are down right now, but did THE GAME ever lose it's luster when you guys "did not hold up your end of the bargain" when you went 2-10-1 under cooper?

Oh I can remember a fan from up north claiming as much or pretending that Sparty was now their 'real' rival.

I agree with this.... I would be willing to bet if this were going on in the 90's Coop would be all for making his game earlier in the season. He prolly would have had a better record if the rivalry was diminished by taking it away from the last game of the year. I also believe if we rematched them after some of those bad losses IE 95 and 96 we would have won. Maybe even spoiled M*chig*ns NC.

Pretty much all of which I just see as strengthening the argument against rematches. :)

If Coop couldn't get it done the first time why should he have been given a second shot?

 

[DallasHusker]

I don't agree with half of these things, specifically the 2 of them are debatable opinions. The same debatable opinions being discussed in this very thread.



I know of no reason why the final regular season game would ever be intra-conference. I assume you meant intra-division, and in regards to the effect the divisional split will have on The Game, it's all pure speculation at this point regardless of any evidential factors. Nobody can really "debate" what the future will look like.

Your "take" on the situation seems to be nothing more than a reiteration of the last 5 pages of this thread

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Uhh yeah, I was trying to summarize - that's usually what

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is! Thanks for noticing.

Yes, I meant "division" instead of conference, my mistake.

And you disagree with my summary of what's a given - ok, I wasn't trying to start another argument, so carry on.

 

[SloopyHangOn]

Just sayin'.

You can't assume something is "given" in regards to such things unless they are literally fact.

When and where The Game is played is not going to diminish its meaning to me at all. It's still Ohio State/Michigan, it's still a MUST win for either team EVERY year and to the victors still go 365 days of bragging rights. The tradition of this game has been formed only in PART (albeit a significant part) by when it has been played. The continuity of this game's tradition does not entirely hinge upon which Saturday the Buckeyes and Wolverines square off. It DOES, however, hinge entirely upon how fans of both programs approach the matter. A win is a win and a loss is a loss. More times than not it does not matter WHEN in the season you win as long as you DO win.

I've said it before in this thread, but in my opinion winning The Game is without a doubt the BIGGEST thing each season, but it is not the ONLY thing. Having the opportunity to win a National Title in any year is good for the program as a whole. It helps propel recruiting, media momentum and revenue. If given the choice between losing to Michigan and winning the National Title and beating Michigan and losing every other game, some of us as fans would take the latter in a heartbeat. The AD, President and conference commissioners on the other hand would take the former EVERY time.

Times change, programs change and the sport changes. The next few years are going to be witness to the largest change in the BigTen in the modern era of football and who better to embrace and "go with the flow" of those changes than the two largest names in the BigTen (hell ALL of football)?

In all honesty, I would be more interested in watching 5-0/6-0 Buckeye and Wolverine teams facing off every Halloween than I would an 11-0 team face a 4-7 team every Thanksgiving, especially if that meant having the opportunity to see both teams play again for the conference title after the BigTen dust has settled.

If that means I'm drinking the Kool-Aid then so be it but as much as I'd like things to stay the same it seems as if that's simply too much to ask when everything else is moving in different directions. Of course, we still don't know for sure but if the decision is to put 'em in different cages, I'll be one of the minority looking forward to watching Jim "Vick" Delany release the dogs under the lights mid December.

 

[muffler dragon]

In all honesty, I would be more interested in watching 5-0/6-0 Buckeye and Wolverine teams facing off every Halloween than I would an 11-0 team face a 4-7 team every Thanksgiving, especially if that meant having the opportunity to see both teams play again for the conference title after the BigTen dust has settled.

And if you see them play again in the CCG; then THE GAME is diminished, because it is rendered irrelevant in the grand scheme of things that year. Furthermore, it would make me wretch to beat Michigan early in the year only to be spoiled in the CCG.

 

[Tlangs]

I just don't understand this logic. Yes we are down right now, but did THE GAME ever lose it's luster when you guys "did not hold up your end of the bargain" when you went 2-10-1 under cooper? Did the Auburn Alabama game lose it's luster because Alabama had been down prior to Nick saban? Alot of programs go through rough patches, college football in general is very cyclical and it's just our time to go through it.

to me this is apples an oranges. Cooper lost to Michigan but he brought some good teams into The Game. Coop never went back to back seasons only winning 1 big ten game. Cooper lived up to his end of the deal by fielding a competitive team...they just happened to get beat. Rich Rod is not fielding a competitive team.

 

[SloopyHangOn]

And if you see them play again in the CCG; then THE GAME is diminished, because it is rendered irrelevant in the grand scheme of things that year. Furthermore, it would make me wretch to beat Michigan early in the year only to be spoiled in the CCG.

Must be a glass half empty kind of thing.

The Game is still important in each team's pursuit if getting TO the BTCG, and it's hardly rendered irrelevant if a L in that game is the only thing standing between a Buckeye or Wolverine team making it to Indy (or wherever it ends up).

And it would definitely be a brand new type of disgusting to witness a re-match where tSUN steals the conference title from us by a last second FG after we beat them (maybe soundly) earlier in the season. HOWEVER, it's that very fear of heartbreak (in a somewhat familiar way) that seems to me to add a fantastic new angle to the whole thing.

Just take a look at the 2006 season.

Imagine if Ohio State and Michigan were in separate divisions and played each other that season when they were both 5-0. Michigan wins a close game on the road and both teams run the table. In that scenario, both teams would again play for the BigTen Championship at the end of the season. Imagine the fire in the Buckeyes and all of Columbus going into that mid-December match-up. It would not only be for the BigTen outright (as it was anyway) it would be for a trip to the National Championship (as it was anyway).

In my eyes that scenario would have made the regular season game slightly less of a draw, but the championship game an infinitely larger draw. Odds are the two teams still go into the game #1 and #2 or at worst #1 and #3 and instead of an Ohio State win simply being one on the way to Glendale, it's revenge. Sweet, tasty, revenge.

Just the way I see it.

 

[muffler dragon]

Must be a glass half empty kind of thing.

Yes, it is.

The Game is still important in each team's pursuit if getting TO the BTCG, and it's hardly rendered irrelevant if a L in that game is the only thing standing between a Buckeye or Wolverine team making it to Indy (or wherever it ends up).

IF both teams end up in the CCG; then the outcome of the regular season GAME between the two is irrelevant as it didn't play a role in either team not making it to the CCG.

And it would definitely be a brand new type of disgusting to witness a re-match where tSUN steals the conference title from us by a last second FG after we beat them (maybe soundly) earlier in the season. HOWEVER, it's that very fear of heartbreak (in a somewhat familiar way) that seems to me to add a fantastic new angle to the whole thing.

Just take a look at the 2006 season.

Imagine if Ohio State and Michigan were in separate divisions and played each other that season when they were both 5-0. Michigan wins a close game on the road and both teams run the table. In that scenario, both teams would again play for the BigTen Championship at the end of the season. Imagine the fire in the Buckeyes and all of Columbus going into that mid-December match-up. It would not only be for the BigTen outright (as it was anyway) it would be for a trip to the National Championship (as it was anyway).

In my eyes that scenario would have made the regular season game slightly less of a draw, but the championship game an infinitely larger draw. Odds are the two teams still go into the game #1 and #2 or at worst #1 and #3 and instead of an Ohio State win simply being one on the way to Glendale, it's revenge. Sweet, tasty, revenge.

Just the way I see it.

I prefer to look to 1996 when considering these things:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_%E2%80%93_Florida_State_football_rivalry#1990_-_2000

For national championship implications, 1996 was the high point of the series. Both teams were undefeated and ranked #1 (UF) and #2 (FSU) coming into their regular season finale in Tallahassee, where the Seminoles won a hard-fought contest 24-21. However, the season belonged to Florida, as their 52-20 win in a Sugar Bowl rematch gave them their first national title.

I have no interest whatsoever in having a Seminole-type season.