Big Ten Conference Divisions

[goblue15]

If it aint broke don't fix it, The Game is perfect the way it is now.

 

[SloopyHangOn]

The Colts and Patriots are considered rivals? Really? Because they have both been good this decade?

Celtics and Lakers are not in the same conference. They're whole rivalry is based on appearing in the NBA finals. Not the same thing at all. People don't sit around thinking about those great regular season matchups between them.

In a round about way, you just made my point for me, what little point there was to make.

 

[BigJim]

What's misleading? I grouped several well-known rivalries in 2 groups - those in the same division and those that aren't.

I analyze/price health insurance for a living. What you did would be like me trying to gender price a new product that doesn't cover maternity or drug benefits by grouping all of the current male claims and comparing it to all of the current female claims that do include drug/maternity. You have to take out (at least) the major factors if you're going to use the results to make some overall definitive conclusion like "I think it shouldn't take a PhD in Astronomy to figure out what to do with TSUN and tOSU."

I also stated an opinion that the 2 rivalries that stayed in the same division (WLOCP and Iron Bowl) have continued to be very important, and that the rivalry that was moved into being a divisional game (Red River Shootout) has thrived since then. And calling that game 'status quo' is way off the mark, I believe; it has grown hugely in terms of national importance over the past 15 years.

I don't think OSU/scUM staying as the last game of the year means the rivalry has the potential to thrive (relatively) like the Red River. It's neat that it happened to Texas/Okla, but OSU/scUM is already about as big as it gets.

My whole point is that you have a few examples that support that leaving OSU/scUM in the same division should at least preserve the current status and only one possible example that shows rivals moving to separate divisions messing things up (FSU/Miami). Hardly convincing evidence, at least to the degree that you're making it sound.

 

[zincfinger]

Obviously, the powers that be think that they must have a Championship game and they're willing to sacrifice some of the prestige The Game has to fund the entire league.(how much prestige does The Game have left when scUM loses to Toledo?) Or just stay ahead of the curve of changing college football. They are forward thinking rather than backward thinking. I have no idea if they are headed in the right direction.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought you were saying that money is specifically driving a possible decision to separate OSU and UM into different divisions. I would agree that a CCG probably makes money. It's not clear to me how separating OSU and UM makes money.

 

[Taosman]

If it aint broke don't fix it, The Game is perfect the way it is now.

Some would say that Michigan broke it by not keeping up their end.
You lose to (an admittedly good) DII school on national tv.
Then you lose to a really bad Toledo team on national tv.
And then you have consecutive bad seasons.
You don't beat your big game rival since 2003.
How much prestige is left? What is left? Just the history.
But is that enough?
I think that if Michigan were still winning and being more competitive in The Game(winning), we wouldn't even be discussing a possible rivals splitting up.

 

[bkochmc]

Some would say that Michigan broke it by not keeping up their end.
You lose to (an admittedly good) DII school on national tv.

Appalachian St. is D-I FCS (formerly DI-AA), not D-II.

How much prestige is left? What is left? Just the history.
But is that enough?

If you don't think that beating Michigan whether they are 0-11 or 11-0 is enough then you don't understand the rivalry. The prestige of this rivaly is built up over generations, not a 10 year period. You're making the same mistake Michigan fans of the 90's did when they were saying "Ohio State can't beat us, Michigan State is our real rival". Don't get too comfortable with your rival otherwise things change in a hurry, just ask Lllloyd Carr.

I think that if Michigan were still winning and being more competitive in The Game(winning), we wouldn't be even be discussing a possible rivals splitting up.

Doubtful. Delany would still be looking at how to maximize profit no matter what traditions and records are. From a business standpoint he should evaluate the idea. From an ideological and historical standpoint he needs to dismiss the idea. Unfortunately I think his business thought process will win out.

If it aint broke don't fix it, The Game is perfect the way it is now.

This man gets it. Michigan fans like goblue who hold the rivalry in high esteem are our friends in this case... but only here.

 

[SloopyHangOn]

I think that if Michigan were still winning and being more competitive in The Game(winning), we wouldn't even be discussing a possible rivals splitting up.

If anything, the prospect of two top ten teams, let alone Ohio State and Michigan, playing each other mid-season AND (pre)post-season would be such a driving factor we wouldn't be discussing it as it would've already been settled and announced.

I also think perspectives would be drastically different if this discussion were being made in the off-season before 2006.

 

[BB73]

I analyze/price health insurance for a living. What you did would be like me trying to gender price a new product that doesn't cover maternity or drug benefits by grouping all of the current male claims and comparing it to all of the current female claims that do include drug/maternity. You have to take out (at least) the major factors if you're going to use the results to make some overall definitive conclusion like "I think it shouldn't take a PhD in Astronomy to figure out what to do with TSUN and tOSU."

I don't think OSU/scUM staying as the last game of the year means the rivalry has the potential to thrive (relatively) like the Red River. It's neat that it happened to Texas/Okla, but OSU/scUM is already about as big as it gets.

My whole point is that you have a few examples that support that leaving OSU/scUM in the same division should at least preserve the current status and only one possible example that shows rivals moving to separate divisions messing things up (FSU/Miami). Hardly convincing evidence, at least to the degree that you're making it sound.

I'm sorry, but that analogy I bolded is a complete crock. When discussing whether tOSU and TSUN should be placed in different divisions and whether The Game should stay as the season-ender, what other comparisons am I supposed to make besides other rivalries that have been impacted by conference alignment and possible movement of a game's schedule?

Conference alignment hasn't occurred in the Big Ten before, so looking to other FBS conferences for the impact conference alignment had on rivalries is the best I could do. Saying that my comparison is like you trying to use male insurance claims to determine something for a maternity drug is an insult to my intelligence.

If you think my conclusions are too strong based on the examples I used, that's fine. But please don't compare it to something that would be BS in your line of work, when I used the best examples available - other intra-conference rivalries in FBS football. If you have better examples for comparison, please provide them.

 

[Taosman]

Don't misunderstand my intent in asking the question. I love beating scUM. Especially after suffering the Cooper years. 13 long years.
But I'm trying, like a lot of fans, to understand what is driving this process.
Money certainly is huge in their thinking apparently. And the college landscape is changing with Super Conferences a real possibility. And they want to stay competitive.

 

[Woody1968]

In a round about way, you just made my point for me, what little point there was to make.

By talking about the Lakers/Celtics playing for the world championship? I think you are making a mistake in comparing a CCG with the NBA finals. The BCS championship game would be more comparable than some measely conference championship game...

 

[daddyphatsacs]

I guess I just don't understand why everyone is starting so get testy here. This argument is getting stale. The same points are being made over and over again. Invoking basketball rivalries, and comparing NFL rivalries is reaching a bit. I love the idea of fruitful discussion, but I think most of us Buckeye fans are in consensus here in the scheme of it all. This probably will diminish the rivalry with Michigan. It sucks, but that is probably what's going to happen.

If you hate this idea so much and are appalled by the decision, your best means of protest would be to stop buying OSU gear, stop donating, and sell your tickets.

We, as fans, are not owners of this program, nor the rivalry, nor the Big Ten. We add to the fanbase, that's really about it. I think some feel that their influence is a hell of a lot more than it really is. In the end, they are going to do whatever is set in motion here. There is nothing we can do about it in the short term. The only long term means of protest would be to stop buying tickets, gear, ect. Maybe if enough people did it, the point would be made. I'd wager that it won't be the case though.

I have a feeling that the Michigan game will still be one of the hottest tickets of the year, regardless of the situation, or when it is played. As for the rivalry, well my opinion has been documented.

Let's see how this thing plays out before declaring it the death of OSU-Michigan, the Big Ten, ect. Until we get some solid information, we are going to be going in circles with our arguments.

 

[bkochmc]

Don't misunderstand my intent in asking the question. I love beating scUM. Especially after suffering the Cooper years. 13 long years.
But I'm trying, like a lot of fans, to understand what is driving this process.
Money certainly is huge in their thinking apparently. And the college landscape is changing with Super Conferences a real possibility. And they want to stay competitive.

From your perspective how does putting Ohio State and Michigan in separate divisions make the Big Ten more competitive?

IMO (with my conspiracy hat on), the other thing besides money that is driving this split is JoePa. He knows that Ohio State and Michigan are the true driving forces in the conference and he wants to make sure State Penn gets paired with one of them. I have no info to back that theory up but if it is found State Penn is the driving force between diving college football's two biggest rivals BN27 better buy himself a fleet of trailers because there will be a ton of Buckeye fans jumping on the "I hate absolutely everything about Penn State" bandwagon.

 

[goblue15]

Some would say that Michigan broke it by not keeping up their end.
You lose to (an admittedly good) DII school on national tv.
Then you lose to a really bad Toledo team on national tv.
And then you have consecutive bad seasons.
You don't beat your big game rival since 2003.
How much prestige is left? What is left? Just the history.
But is that enough?
I think that if Michigan were still winning and being more competitive in The Game(winning), we wouldn't even be discussing a possible rivals splitting up.

I just don't understand this logic. Yes we are down right now, but did THE GAME ever lose it's luster when you guys "did not hold up your end of the bargain" when you went 2-10-1 under cooper? Did the Auburn Alabama game lose it's luster because Alabama had been down prior to Nick saban? Alot of programs go through rough patches, college football in general is very cyclical and it's just our time to go through it.

 

[Piney]

Official.site.video

Dispatch.blog

I am really hoping this is what happened.

Big Ten AD's came up with two division splits. The one they prefer is splitting up Ohio State & Michigan. So the plan was to float a trial balloon to see what happens as they wouldn't sign off on it unless they had a perceived reaction that they can get away with it.

Now hopefully the Michigan AD & President are getting similar reaction and they can nix the plan and go with Plan B.

Hey, a guy can have hope, right?

 

[bassbuckeye07]

I just don't understand this logic. Yes we are down right now, but did THE GAME ever lose it's luster when you guys "did not hold up your end of the bargain" when you went 2-10-1 under cooper? Did the Auburn Alabama game lose it's luster because Alabama had been down prior to Nick saban? Alot of programs go through rough patches, college football in general is very cyclical and it's just our time to go through it.

I agree with this.... I would be willing to bet if this were going on in the 90's Coop would be all for making his game earlier in the season. He prolly would have had a better record if the rivalry was diminished by taking it away from the last game of the year. I also believe if we rematched them after some of those bad losses IE 95 and 96 we would have won. Maybe even spoiled M*chig*ns NC.