Big Ten and other Conference Expansion

[ORD_Buckeye]

one thing does puzzle me. i know the big ten and pac-10 have a storied history, but it never had occurred to me that the big ten might intentionally soft pedal to give the pac-10 first shot. i hope that isn't the case.

No insider information. It's not likely nor even a hunch really. It's just a scenario, while probably unlikely, that is still somewhat reasonable under the right set of circumstances.

 

[glenn]

bingo, ord. nail, meet hammer here.

don't be so sure that stoops has done that much clean-up. yes, it isn't an openly weeping sore like it was with switzer. switzer didn't care if you knew. read up about that big red import scandal. let's see: a qb and a backup offensive lineman were on the take. roommates they were and troublemakers. the qb's dad retired and moved to norman to advise the staff on how to use his son who he had coached in hs. oh, yeah, a walk-on wide receiver who had never seen the field was on the take, too. but not a one of the other 25 or so sooners employed there, all of whom could tell the ncaa gumshoes how to clock in but not a one how to clock out. i solemnly promise not a one of them participated. trust me. : )

not to worry, though. ou instituted a new policy that not more than 5 sooners can be employed at the same business. kind of like the navy saying brothers cannot serve on the same ship after the five sullivan boys died together.

also, do you think indiana will hire another sooner basketball coach anytime soon? what indiana learned is that when a coach has reported every morning to his a.d. and to the school president how he plans to increase their unfair advantage that day, he is worthless to a program that appreciates its good reputation. cheating is a narcotic, and when a coach is hooked, he cannot get past the feeling that he is no good without it. that indiana guy cheated even after getting caught. he couldn't not cheat.

switzer. yeah, they still call him the king.

nebraska has never forgiven texas for gutting their program. they made a living from unlimited partial qualifiers and prided themselves in structuring an academic program that could keep a dead man qualified. texas absolutely refused to join the big 12 unless partial qualifiers were limited to two per season. blew nebraska out of the water.

old joke: what does the big 'N' on the nebraska helmets stand for?







nowledge.

 

[DaveyBoy]

Oklahoma would be the 2nd 3rd best all around athletic program in the BigTen if it joined. Oklahoma is a perennial top 20 BB program and occasionally top 10. They are elite in Baseball, Wrestling, Gymnastics. They are academically a good university. I'm not in favor of OU being in the BigTen, but it's not because they aren't a quality university and athletic program....because they are.

Nebraska and Oklahoma don't bring anything but a football program, and neither makes it past the faculties when we would, in effect, be spurning Pitt, Syracuse and Rutgers for them. If we do go to 14, we'll definitely take one school that, hypothetically, brings us the NYC market. For 14, I'd see the following:

Syracuse or Rutgers
Texas
Missouri.

Then, the Pac 10 takes Colorado and maybe A&M.



No more Big 12.

 

[glenn]

oh, i think you are right, mike. but that just me reading tea leaves. i do have faith in these guys doing the right thing.

that's good to hear, ord. i'm hoping something like that isn't set in stone. i don't dislike the pac-10 at all. if they just showed some gonads now and then, you know.

my son just called and we need to meet at my daughters place to do a little work. enjoy chatting with you guys. i'll be back.

 

[glenn]

you're killin' me, dave, you're killin' me.

see you guys later.

 

[MaxBuck]

If Notre Dame wanted to join the Big 10, the Big 10 would let them in. There is no question about that. If Notre Dame issued a statement today, that they intended to seek membership in the Big 10, they would be a full member by next tuesday. Furthermore, I see all the reasons why Texas might have incentives to join the Big 10, and it just isn't happening. No Way, No How, NFW. The Big 10 will not take a team from the Big 12, not even Missouri, who would bolt if they had the chance. The Big 10 is not the ACC, and it has more class than to raid the Big 12. Syracuse and Rutgers aree more likely than a Big 12 school, but Notre Dame is a nationally followed program that would corner more of the NY/NJ/Conn TV market than any of the local teams. Trust me, it will be ND or nobody.

What inside information do you have? Because from where I sit, your reasoning is faulty.

 

[TheRob8801]

On the Texas front:

This may have been mentioned already in this thread and I have over looked it...but including Texas in the BigTen, while not the furthest trip possible between conference foes, would be the most out of the way for the rest of the conference...

Lemme explain:


The furthest trips in each of the BCS conferences are as such:

Pac-10
Seattle (Washington) to Tuscon (Arizona):
1624 Miles

ACC
Boston (Boston College) to Miami (Miami)
1500 Miles

Big East
Tampa (South Florida) to Syracuse (Syracuse)
1305 Miles

SEC
Gainesville (Florida) to Fayetteville (Arkansas)
1025 Miles

Big XII (w/ Texas)
Austin (Texas) to Ames (Iowa State)
962 Miles

Big XII (w/o Texas)
College Station (Texas A&M) to Ames (Iowa State):
962 Miles

Big Ten (w/ Texas)
University Park (Penn State) to Austin (Texas)
1549 Miles

Big Ten (w/o Texas)
University Park (Penn State) to Minneapolis (Minnesota)
971 Miles


So the furthest trip with Texas as part of the Big Ten would definitely be from Tuscon to Seattle...

HOWEVER

If you look at the closest schools to both Arizona and Washington, you're looking at schools within the state...and much of the rest of the conference is within 600 miles of each school respectively...

The closest Big Ten school to Texas is Illinois in Champaigne...which is 1025 Miles!


As much as I'd love the addition of Texas as a program in both Football and Basketball, I don't see it as reasonable for the fans or players.

I've always felt that Notre Dame should suck it up and hop on board simply because it's easiest for all parties involved...but I'm also very keen on the idea of adding Rutgers in the NY market or Missouri...whose fan base is HUGE and travels well...

 

[Woody1968]

What inside information do you have? Because from where I sit, your reasoning is faulty.

I don't have any insider information, I'm just using common sense. The point of this proposed expansion is to get a championship game and strengthen the conference in football. The only two schools that could possibly pass academic muster AND strengthen the conference in football on a consistant basis are Texas and Notre Dame. The Big 10 has said it wants to "hit a home run" with expansion, again, only Texas or Notre Dame would fit there too. The Big 10 has never shown any interest in Texas, nor has Texas publically looked at the Big 10. The Big 10 will not try and lure a Big 12 team without being open about it, and the Big 12 will surely sweeten it's relationship with any proposed defector, especially Texas. The Big 12 is not going to let its cash cow walk out the door. I realize academic standards aren't high at most Big 12 schools, but they aren't THAT dumb. Nobody cares about Pitt, Rutgers or Syracuse enough for them to be viable choices in the long term, except for Penn State, who lacks a real rival in the conference. The Big 10 has looked at Notre Dame every time this discussion comes up. Notre Dame has come close before. Exactly what makes you think that the situation is any different now, except that Notre Dame has more incentive to actually close the deal this time? Their ratings are down, and that NBC contract will not be there forever. The Big 10 wants to expand the BTN east - Notre Dame's largest following is on the East Coast. The Big 10 also left open the possibility that they may not even expand if they don't think they can get the right fit. That's Notre Dame, like it or not.

 

[Woody1968]

I've always felt that Notre Dame should suck it up and hop on board simply because it's easiest for all parties involved...but I'm also very keen on the idea of adding Rutgers in the NY market or Missouri...whose fan base is HUGE and travels well...

I'm willing to bet that more TVs in the NYC area tune in for Notre Dame than for Rutgers. Rutgers has been a nice story the past few years, but it is in Jersey. New Yorkers don't care about some team from Jersey, but there are a lot of Catholics in the area who are old enough to remember when Catholics loved Notre Dame.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

Oklahoma would be the 2nd 3rd best all around athletic program in the BigTen if it joined. Oklahoma is a perennial top 20 BB program and occasionally top 10. They are elite in Baseball, Wrestling, Gymnastics. They are academically a good university. I'm not in favor of OU being in the BigTen, but it's not because they aren't a quality university and athletic program....because they are.

Oklahoma is a "good" university only in the context of much of what passes for higher education in that part of the country. Were they to join the CIC, they'd be the worst affiliated school by a country mile. I'd wager that the gap between the current lowest (but still excellent) schools--Indiana and MSU--and the top (Chicago) would be smaller than it would be down to Oklahoma.

Also, they're not an AAU member, and that rules anyone other than Notre Dame out before any discussion even begins. Trust me. This I do know. I even have a wager on it.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

you're killin' me, dave, you're killin' me.

see you guys later.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to glenn again.

 

[harrydangler]

This is probably relevant to the thread. Most valuable college football teams.

#1 Texas
#2 Notre Dame
#3 Penn State
#8 Ohio State

College Football's Most Valuable Teams - Forbes.com

Buckeyes are the only school in the top 10 in both football and basketball.

 

[glenn]

ok, here's what i came up with on air mileage. next to the school name is the city i'm guessing a visiting team would fly into. if i'm off on that, please let me know. next to that is the one-way air mileage that i got from austin, using this website:

Mileage Calculator - WebFlyer :: The Frequent Flyer Authority

[i'm using air miles since we're just looking at feasibility for transporting the texas team and they would for sure fly to all these locations.]

then i averaged the distances doubled (to get the round trip). i'm assuming usual 12-team arrangement where the 12 are split into two divisions, and a team plays all the teams in its division every year, home and home, and half the teams in the other division home and home on a rotating basis. that suggests that a team would visit the average far division team 1 1/2 times on the average each year and the average near division team 2 1/2 times on the average each year. so i multiplied the avg trip two-way distance by the avg number of trips per annum to get the avg total air miles per annum for the near division and the far division. then summed the averages for the two divisions to get the conference average air miles for the texas team. that appears below for the pac-10 and for the big ten.

certainly we don't know how the conferences would be split into divisions, so i'm guessing on that. also note that i included colorado to give the pac-10 its 12 teams.

note that the pac-10 average annual air miles would be almost 2000 miles more flying.


Pac-10 NW
Stanford - Palo Alto 1480
California - Oakland 1490
Washington State - Pullman 1540
Oregon - Eugene 1690
Oregon State - Corvallis 1700
Washington - Seattle 1760
avg trip two-way 3220
avg trips per annum 1.5
avg total per annum 4830

Pac-10 SE
Arizona - Tucson 791
Colorado - Boulder 795
Arizona State - Phoenix 866
UCLA - Los Angeles 1230
USC - Los Angeles 1230
avg trip two-way 1964
avg trips per annum 2.5
avg total per annum 4910

Pac-10 Conference annual avg air miles 9740

Big Ten North
Wisconsin - Madison 998
Minnesota - Minneapolis 1040
Ohio State - Columbus 1070
Michigan State - Lansing 1120
Michigan - Ann Arbor 1130
Penn State - State College 1330
avg trip two-way 2228
avg trips per annum 1.5
avg total per annum 3342

Big Ten South
Iowa - Iowa City 856
Illinois - Champaign 856
Indiana - Bloomington 858
Purdue - Lafayette 923
Northwestern - Chicago 972
avg trip two-way 1784
avg trips per annum 2.5
avg total per annum 4460

Big 10 Conference annual avg air miles 7802


next i hope to finish up a look at academic comparison using the us news and world list since i don't know of a better source of data. might be tomorrow that i do that. some interesting things come out of that.

 

[glenn]

rob, i just read your post, and i realize you are looking at the mileage from a fan standpoint, questioning whether you guys want to add a team that far away. i'm looking at it from an i-wonder-if-texas-might-spring-for-this standpoint. the big ten situation certainly looks more attractive to me.

something else worth mentioning. a texas poster commented that it is probably easier for our team to visit you guys than some of the smaller town big 12 teams. i hadn't thought of that. if we have to fly into a nearby place and then bus to the college town, that can be a pain in the neck. other than added cost for a longer flight, it probably doesn't much matter to a team once it is airborne whether it flies a few hundred miles further. and if the longer flight doesn't terminate into a long bus ride, that is probably preferable from their angle.

also, the big ten schools would at most be a one-hour time change with most of them no change.

 

[BrutusBobcat]

something else worth mentioning. a texas poster commented that it is probably easier for our team to visit you guys than some of the smaller town big 12 teams. i hadn't thought of that. if we have to fly into a nearby place and then bus to the college town, that can be a pain in the neck. other than added cost for a longer flight, it probably doesn't much matter to a team once it is airborne whether it flies a few hundred miles further. and if the longer flight doesn't terminate into a long bus ride, that is probably preferable from their angle.

That's an interesting point. Ohio State is no more than 15 minutes from Port Columbus; the worst flight is going to be to Penn State, which is in the middle of nowhere. I think you fly into Harrisburg then bus it into Happy Valley. Here's the others:

The good:

Minnesota - Like OSU, within about 15 minutes of a major airport (MSP)
Wisconsin - Madtown has a mid-market commercial airport
Northwestern - Maybe 20 minutes from O'Hare
Illinois - Like Madtown, a mid-market commercial airport
Iowa - Again, a mid-market commercial airport

The not-so-good:

Michigan, Purdue, Indiana, Michigan State all lack even a mid-market airport, so they'll involve either a bus ride or charter flight.

I'm not sure what the B12 is like, though since the Big Ten is relatively centered around Chicago, any charter flight for Texas could go out of O'Hare to the smaller university towns.