Big Ten and other Conference Expansion

[Mike80]

I still don't understand why Ohio State and Michigan can't be in the same division. The SEC doesn't have any problems putting Auburn/Alabama or Florida/Georgia in the same division. And the Pac-12 doesn't fret over having USC/UCLA or any other long-time rivals in the same division.

Except for the fact that none of the Auburn/UGA/Florida/UCLA types are in Ohio State's and Michigan's stratosphere, although UGA and Florida are closer than the other two.

As we've seen with the Big XII, you don't want to put all of your eggs in one basket (OU and Texas) which basically hamstrung that league once Nebraska fell apart. The Big Ten leadership perceives the only real long term strength in the conference to be between Ohio State and Michigan, so they are splitting them up with that idea in mind.

Not that I agree with it of course. Nebraska is a good coach away from being Nebraska again and Ped State and Wisconsin have shown they can win the conference as well.

 

[Mike80]

Big Ten 1:
Ohio State
Michigan
Illinois
Indiana
Northwestern
Maryland
Purdue

Big Ten 2:
Ped State
Wisconsin
Nebraska
Rutgers
Minnesota
Iowa
Michigan State

I'd personally split up the Michigan schools and use that as their protected cross-over game.

This way there would be 3 potential powers and 2 teams that can be decent at times in Iowa and Sparty. Division 1 is a little top heavy, but this could achieve balance between the two. Maybe swap Sparty for Northworstern.

 

[LitlBuck]

I still don't understand why Ohio State and Michigan can't be in the same division. The SEC doesn't have any problems putting Auburn/Alabama or Florida/Georgia in the same division. And the Pac-12 doesn't fret over having USC/UCLA or any other long-time rivals in the same division.

I agree with you. They should be put in the same division because the following week they would be playing for the conference championship if they were in different divisions anyway take a little bit of the luster off of one of those games. It is very difficult to get skyhigh two weeks in a row for any opponent. Also, while it isn't the same, look at Stanford/UCLA games this past season. Because they were in different divisions, they played each other the last two weeks of the season.

Sure, it would be fun beating Michigan two weeks in a row but I still think that after a few years it would start to wear.

 

[HorseshoeFetish]

I still don't understand why Ohio State and Michigan can't be in the same division. The SEC doesn't have any problems putting Auburn/Alabama or Florida/Georgia in the same division. And the Pac-12 doesn't fret over having USC/UCLA or any other long-time rivals in the same division.

They do indeed. I probably have a biased opinion on the matter but I think that's why THE GAME is better than any rivalry you mentioned, including the red river rivalry. The Game often decides the BIG champion, it should be no other way. The thought that tOSU winning in glorious fashion over the scUMmers in The Big Championship Game never happening seems tragic to me.

Someone posted that adding Tejas and Another Dame and putting them opposite of tOSU and scUM would fix this..No it wouldn't. Not in my eyes. As far as I'm concerned if you are going to win the BIG you should have to at the very least win your division against tOSU or scUM, and then win the championship game against the other, providing they are there.( I think both schools have earned that right) Anything else seems like a free pass to the championship game for the other division to me.

Big Ten 2:
Ped State
Wisconsin
Nebraska
Rutgers
Minnesota
Iowa
Michigan State

Sorry none of these schools should get that free pass IMO.

 

[jlb1705]

The Game often decides the BIG champion, it should be no other way.

If they are in separate divisions, the only guaranteed matchup each season will NEVER determine a champion, by definition. If they are in the same division at least it can determine who wins that. That's the direction this thing is headed anyway. With conference expansion, divisions are going to be so large it will be a de-facto mini-conference.

I will hate to see that day that Ohio State wins The Game in glorious fashion in The 'Shoe, and then the following week lose the one that "counts" in a facsimile do-over game in a fucking dome. I will also hate to see the day that Ohio State holds something back in a late November game to better position themselves to win a rematch a week later.

I don't get the arguments in favor of separating the teams to protect the sanctity of the game in Indianapolis. That game has no tradition and little prestige. It is an artificial way to crown a champion and a complete money grab. Attaching everything that is good and pure and important about the game to a made-up one-game playoff tacked on to the end of the season is a mistake. There seem to be some people in the B1G who want to diminish the importance of this rivalry. Keeping the two teams in separate divisions is probably the best way to do that.

 

[Mike80]

Sorry none of these schools should get that free pass IMO.

If you think playing a schedule that includes going to Penn State or Wisconsin or Nebraska is a free pass you're kidding yourself. I seem to remember a certain team going through that this season on their way to 12-0. Did any of those games feel like a free pass during the game? Hell fucking no they didn't.

Ok so they aren't Ohio State or Michigan, given what the other division would have to be to achieve the type of balance I am going for, they would then meet up the next week. And as I pointed out, Nebraska, Ped State and Wisconsin aren't going to all be bad at the same time, not anymore and not with the right coaching.

As for the rest of it, fuck the damned conference championship game - if it messes with the importance of The Game it is a failure from the start.

 

[Bucky32]

They do indeed. I probably have a biased opinion on the matter but I think that's why THE GAME is better than any rivalry you mentioned, including the red river rivalry. The Game often decides the BIG champion, it should be no other way. The thought that tOSU winning in glorious fashion over the scUMmers in The Big Championship Game never happening seems tragic to me.

Someone posted that adding Tejas and Another Dame and putting them opposite of tOSU and scUM would fix this..No it wouldn't. Not in my eyes. As far as I'm concerned if you are going to win the BIG you should have to at the very least win your division against tOSU or scUM, and then win the championship game against the other, providing they are there.( I think both schools have earned that right) Anything else seems like a free pass to the championship game for the other division to me.

Sorry none of these schools should get that free pass IMO.

Well sure, that's perfectly logical.

 

[Jaxbuck]

The traditionalist in me says keep OSU/scUM in the same division so The Game isn't impacted.

The pragmatic realist in me says I want OSU to have as many factors in its favor as possible to compete for NC's in the upcoming playoff age. Therefore I want OSU in the weakest division possible with a chance to rematch the team that will most likely have the best chance to beat us in any given year.

Playoffs don't reward the best season, just who plays the best once you are in. A playoff format is coming so there is no sense in handicapping yourself, take the option that gives you the best chance to consistently make it in.

 

[HorseshoeFetish]

If you think playing a schedule that includes going to Penn State or Wisconsin or Nebraska is a free pass you're kidding yourself. I seem to remember a certain team going through that this season on their way to 12-0. Did any of those games feel like a free pass during the game? Hell fucking no they didn't.

Ok so they aren't Ohio State or Michigan, given what the other division would have to be to achieve the type of balance I am going for, they would then meet up the next week. And as I pointed out, Nebraska, Ped State and Wisconsin aren't going to all be bad at the same time, not anymore and not with the right coaching.

As for the rest of it, fuck the damned conference championship game - if it messes with the importance of The Game it is a failure from the start.

You almost make all of my points Mike...none of those team are tOSU or scUM..not a single one of them. I'd dare say all three are at a questionable time in their history at the moment. I mean who is Nebraska, what is Wisconsin going to be, and how far will Penn State fall?

As far as a "Free Ride" goes....hey it is what it is...I think you should have to beat one for your division, and the other for the title. The thought of not having to play either and getting in the title game seems kinda free to me.

The title game exists...that's what it is. If tOSU and scUM will never play in it then that's a serious flaw in the program to me.

Not to mention having the 2 schools that easily out recruit every other team in the BIG in the same division seems flawed to me.

I'm not trying to degrade any other teams in the BIG here..but in football..it's tOSU and scUM...I just think if your going to win the BIG you should at least be required, if all things play out, to beat them both.

 

[Bucky32]

You almost make all of my points Mike...none of those team are tOSU or scUM..not a single one of them. I'd dare say all three are at a questionable time in their history at the moment. I mean who is Nebraska, what is Wisconsin going to be, and how far will Penn State fall?

As far as a "Free Ride" goes....hey it is what it is...I think you should have to beat one for your division, and the other for the title. The thought of not having to play either and getting in the title game seems kinda free to me.

The title game exists...that's what it is. If tOSU and scUM will never play in it then that's a serious flaw in the program to me.

Not to mention having the 2 schools that easily out recruit every other team in the BIG in the same division seems flawed to me.

I'm not trying to degrade any other teams in the BIG here..but in football..it's tOSU and scUM...I just think if your going to win the BIG you should at least be required, if all things play out, to beat them both.

Haven't we proven that with the 12 teams we currently have, if the divisions they chose had been in effect for the last 15 years Michigan and OSU would have met in the title game like 2-3 times? Does not seem worth it to continue forcing them to be in opposite divisions, even if you do end up with protected crossovers. I understand the difference between what Delaney should do vs. will do, but they should really stop this nonsense of trying to get a UM-OSU CCG matchup that may only happen once a decade.

The E/W split (yes, with MSU on the east) produced combined records since the 2000 season of exactly the same winning percentage. Maryland and Rutger's schedule being weaker and Nebraska's being tougher only further enhances that an East division with Michigan, PSU, OSU and MSU is not dominant over a West with Nebraska, Wisconsin, Iowa, Northwestern over the long haul. Also, again, throw OSU out of the comparison because they've been so ridiculously dominant over the past 10+ years that the comparison isn't even fair no matter what side they're on. I think it's something of a false perception that the East/West split would be inherently dominated by the east.

 

[Mike80]

You almost make all of my points Mike...none of those team are tOSU or scUM..not a single one of them. I'd dare say all three are at a questionable time in their history at the moment. I mean who is Nebraska, what is Wisconsin going to be, and how far will Penn State fall?

As far as a "Free Ride" goes....hey it is what it is...I think you should have to beat one for your division, and the other for the title. The thought of not having to play either and getting in the title game seems kinda free to me.

The title game exists...that's what it is. If tOSU and scUM will never play in it then that's a serious flaw in the program to me.

Not to mention having the 2 schools that easily out recruit every other team in the BIG in the same division seems flawed to me.

I'm not trying to degrade any other teams in the BIG here..but in football..it's tOSU and scUM...I just think if your going to win the BIG you should at least be required, if all things play out, to beat them both.

You sound like a Ped State fan with the points you're making re: The big 2 and the little 10. And going through PSU/Nebby/Wisconsin/Sparty isn't a free ride, get over yourself

The divisions need balance in order to keep their little money grab game interesting sure, but it the Big Ten needs to respect traditions first and foremost. You saying someone wouldn't have to play either or to get to the title game kinda ignores the fact there will be 3 cross over games per year when they go to 9 conference games. The chances of not playing both Ohio State and Michigan in the same year are remote and they could very easily put in a provision not allowing that, not that they would, because that isn't the point of the split of the divisions, but for the sake of the conversation, whatever.

The idea is to balance the divisions so that it keeps the rivalries in this conference mostly intact and also allows for the best teams to rise to the top for playoff purposes.

If Ohio State and scUM are 11-0 going into The Game and Ohio State wins, I sure as fuck don't want to see a rematch in a money grab game the next week for what would certainly be a spot in the playoff picture. It was noticeably different in 2006 when they could have had a rematch for all of the marbles - it was almost acceptable. Not quite, but close.

Or even worse something like what could have occurred this year, had Nebraska not beaten scUM, Ohio State beats scUM and then perhaps loses to them and also an almost certain BCS title game berth the next week.

Ohio State and Michigan need to stick together in the same division. Anything else is stupidity and playing to a money grab rather than the traditions that built this conference and all of the fan bases within it does the Big Ten a HUGE disservice.

 

[Mike80]

Haven't we proven that with the 12 teams we currently have, if the divisions they chose had been in effect for the last 15 years Michigan and OSU would have met in the title game like 2-3 times? Does not seem worth it to continue forcing them to be in opposite divisions, even if you do end up with protected crossovers. I understand the difference between what Delaney should do vs. will do, but they should really stop this nonsense of trying to get a UM-OSU CCG matchup that may only happen once a decade.

The ACC did the same thing with FSU and Cryami and basically fucked themselves for 6 years. Cryami fell off the map and Bobbeh wouldn't let go in time to keep FSU afloat. The Big Ten needs to avoid this as well.

The E/W split (yes, with MSU on the east) produced combined records since the 2000 season of exactly the same winning percentage. Maryland and Rutger's schedule being weaker and Nebraska's being tougher only further enhances that an East division with Michigan, PSU, OSU and MSU is not dominant over a West with Nebraska, Wisconsin, Iowa, Northwestern over the long haul. Also, again, throw OSU out of the comparison because they've been so ridiculously dominant over the past 10+ years that the comparison isn't even fair no matter what side they're on. I think it's something of a false perception that the East/West split would be inherently dominated by the east.

I agree, but I don't think we'll see a distinct geographical split unless a few more ACC teams join up.

 

[Jaxbuck]

Haven't we proven that with the 12 teams we currently have, if the divisions they chose had been in effect for the last 15 years Michigan and OSU would have met in the title game like 2-3 times?

Off the top of my head;

2007
2006
2003
1998
1997

and that's with RR crippling their program in 2008. If Hoke gets them back to their usual 3 or so loss selves they will be the most consistent contender for their current divisions title.

 

[Bucky32]

Off the top of my head;

2007
2006
2003
1998
1997

and that's with RR crippling their program in 2008. If Hoke gets them back to their usual 3 or so loss selves they will be the most consistent contender for their current divisions title.

Hmm. I thought I had saw that somewhere in this thread. Guess not. My bad.

 

[Mike80]

Off the top of my head;

2007
2006
2003
1998
1997

and that's with RR crippling their program in 2008. If Hoke gets them back to their usual 3 or so loss selves they will be the most consistent contender for their current divisions title.

Hmm. I thought I had saw that somewhere in this thread. Guess not. My bad.

5 times since 1993 (when Penn State joined) and who knows how things would have been different had there been 12 teams in 1993 instead of 11 as well (a fun theoretical game if they added Mizzou back in 1994 or so for instance).